Re: Aircraft landing in quinling and kashan!

**Bullseye2550** · 12-01-2009, 06:55 AM

buflak and i have a sort of agreement, if the first 4 squads are not cas, attack chopper or something like that and one of the first 4 squads is a logi squad we will take the apache.
and now the question: how often do you see us flying?

my suggestion about bombs: jets should have to come under the clouds in view range to lock on target. just bombing from high altidude is the same as camping the runway with aa (especially on a "bunker").

**d1sp0sabl3H3r0** · 12-01-2009, 08:23 AM

Originally Posted by Celestial1

Rule 5.5: Access directly out of the main may not be blocked or impeded by mines, c4, or other means; this kind of example rarely be applied to map... one that has such a chokehold that wouldn't violate this rule isn't likely.

If there is no way to avoid the ambush, and it's directly outside of their main, it's against the rules.

AAV outside of US main on Kashan is pretty much like having a spandrel waiting for you outside of your base that you can't kill even if you see him before he sees you, and he will kill you, guaranteed. When flying a jet on your final pass to land, your speed and altitude are so low that it is literally impossible, unless the gunner has narcolepsy and you flew in with good timing, to escape. You can use afterburners, spam all flares, crank up the speed, whatever, it's going to get you.

And if you try to go for a gun run, you will likely not have enough speed to pull out of the attack run.

So it's really a losing situation. There's nothing that can be done, even if you make 14 circles over the runway he might roll up on your 15th pass, when you're going to land. It sucks, and there's not a whole lot you can do against it besides not landing.

Ever had your logi truck rpg'd and IED'd in Dylym village before? It's not against the rules, trust me. It used to be, but we changed that.

**Axis_Sniper** · 12-01-2009, 09:10 AM

Originally Posted by d1sp0sabl3H3r0

Ever had your logi truck rpg'd and IED'd in Dylym village before? It's not against the rules, trust me. It used to be, but we changed that.

Sorry for going a little off-topic here, but why? As far as I know, there is no other way to get a Logi truck to the front. I've seen people try and comb the mountains for sappers and rocketeers, but the moment a Logi truck/any other vehicle tried to pass through it got IED'd.

**Bullseye2550** · 12-01-2009, 10:16 AM

Originally Posted by Axis_Sniper

As far as I know, there is no other way to get a Logi truck to the front.

there are other ways, but you need a lot of training to do that and the chance to pass is nearly the same as rushing through village. (also for me, sorry no video of this)

**mat552** · 12-01-2009, 10:17 AM

Originally Posted by Bullseye2550

my suggestion about bombs: jets should have to come under the clouds in view range to lock on target. just bombing from high altidude is the same as camping the runway with aa (especially on a "bunker").

While the engine allows bombs to be dropped willy-nilly from any hight, I find this to be an incredibly stupid tactic. Without visual confirmation of what lockon you're targeting, it won't be long until the enemy starts counter lasing friendly positions for these blind fires, because the cone the bomb will lock onto is very big at any substantial altitude.

It may place my aircraft at bigger risk, but it's a small price to pay to know that the target I hit was the right one. It also means I can catch a quick glance of the target in case I need to come back around.

**d1sp0sabl3H3r0** · 12-01-2009, 10:23 AM

Originally Posted by Axis_Sniper

Sorry for going a little off-topic here, but why? As far as I know, there is no other way to get a Logi truck to the front. I've seen people try and comb the mountains for sappers and rocketeers, but the moment a Logi truck/any other vehicle tried to pass through it got IED'd.

The decision was that the bridge is the choke point, hence the rule that the bridge cannot be destroyed. The village can be defended to prevent sappers/ambushers from using it, but more often than not the Russian team elects not to defend Dylym and that is where the problems begin.

**Axis_Sniper** · 12-01-2009, 10:36 AM

Originally Posted by d1sp0sabl3H3r0

The decision was that the bridge is the choke point, hence the rule that the bridge cannot be destroyed. The village can be defended to prevent sappers/ambushers from using it, but more often than not the Russian team elects not to defend Dylym and that is where the problems begin.

Ah, well I guess I found my new job on the Russian side for Fool's Road then

**Celestial1** · 12-01-2009, 11:21 AM

Originally Posted by d1sp0sabl3H3r0

Ever had your logi truck rpg'd and IED'd in Dylym village before?

Honestly, no. I've never had that experience. Gotten close once or twice, but I've made my way around an ambush more than once there. In the worst case scenario I can always walk out of the truck and check the road, pull out my binoculars and look for RPG gunners. Can't do that in a jet. If there is absolutely no way out of the ambush from main (if you cannot drive out of main and take a route that would not compromise you) then it should not be allowed. However, isn't it possible to drive a logistics truck to the left or right side of the village, rather than taking the road? It may be a little harder to get around, but it's better than playing chicken with an IED on the road.

As for the Rule being applied to the AAV overwatching the runway approach, no, it can't be. I'm not implying that. Rather, I'm kind of proving the difference between a land ambush or an AAV watching the runway approach.

Again, I don't believe there is even a fair way at all to enforce the rule for this scenario. I'd rather have the team's jet shot down than have to worry about arbitrary arguments on the server about the bull.

I'd rather be on the frontlines anyway.

Originally Posted by Delta*RandyShugart*

Theres a huge difference in being in a AAV 150-200m+ plus outside either MEC/US Main's and taking down a jet who is getting into formation to land, then a AAV who is sitting right near the airstrip.........

Yeah. One is easy to get rid of and is useless. The one that can be seen by the tanks, sitting right outside of the base, and cannot see the jet until it is over the hill anyway.

Sitting 150 meters south of the US airstrip both protects you from enemy armor leaving the main, and gives you a nice long look at the enemy jet.

Not to mention that since armor battles on Kashan are concentrated in the NorthWest areas, it is easy for a MEC AAV to drive there undetected.

In both Kashan and Quinling, the issue is aggravated by unforeseen gameplay aspects. The spawning of Hill 181 and the nature of armor battles on Kashan both attribute to this issue. Neither can really be prevented or punished.

**daveyjonesjr** · 12-01-2009, 11:49 AM

on the subject of the chechens ambush on fools road, I always though real life tactics were accepted, I mean the chechens love doing ambush and I even had word that they over run a few russian outpost killing everyone inside and destroying every armor they had.

Waiting for jets to take off and or land at the end of the runway doesnt seems like a real life tactics to be honest...

**d1sp0sabl3H3r0** · 12-01-2009, 12:00 PM

Not trying to open this up yet *again*, but I think I made it pretty clear that it's not the ambush itself that both Snoogums and I were drawing comparisons to, but the fact that in both cases, the opposing team is camping an area where there is a "choke point" to exploit the "weakness" of the opposing units;trucks/tanks/apcs use the road in Dylym (even if there are other ways around on the side of the village it is highly unlikely that they are used) and jets set up their landings a good distance away from their main and are low/slow.

Sure, the vehicles are different and there are other options available to the Russian team (although if there are rpgs waiting there it doesn't matter if you're on the road or not, does it?), it is the camping of a known travel route and choke point that we are drawing comparisons to.

@Davey - why isn't it realistic?

Case #1

Case #2

Seems as though someone is camping the approaches to runway, doesn't it? Sure, they're commercial airliners, but the point is that it is a real and viable tactic that is used.

**snooggums** · 12-01-2009, 12:03 PM

Originally Posted by daveyjonesjr

Waiting for jets to take off and or land at the end of the runway doesnt seems like a real life tactics to be honest...

Really? You don't have to be at the end of the runway, just within a mile or two to get a lock before landing/shortly after takeoff.

**daveyjonesjr** · 12-01-2009, 12:05 PM

Yes shooting down commercial jets have happened in real life its true, even military airplanes have been shoot down few mins after takeoff in afghanistan and iraq, but those were "terrorist attacks" made by insurgent and extremist who doesnt care about the geneva convention or any other laws.

The mec are supposed to be a conventional coalition army.....anyway If you say its legitimate tactics used in real life im not gonna arguee much, ill find ways around it

**d1sp0sabl3H3r0** · 12-01-2009, 12:10 PM

Hey, if a conventional army got a chance to shoot down the enemy jets while they were low and slow don't you think they'd do it? How is that violating the Geneva convention (I'm specifically talking about shooting down military aircraft during a time of war)?

**daveyjonesjr** · 12-01-2009, 12:20 PM

what im saying is that normally two coalition army that are in war wont place their airbase 4 miles fron each others, the jets will usually take off hundred of miles front each others.

The thing in kashan is that both sides have aircraft, a dogfight usually last a few sec and theres always winners, its more a matter of luck really, but both of them have their chance still.

what i mean about the geneva convention is that the extremist doesnt really cares about how dirty their tactics are, they lives only few miles from the airbase in most case, if they want to shoot down commercial jet liners, nothing can stop them, you will very rarely sees a conventional army using this kind of guerilla tactics unless they already loose.

**snooggums** · 12-01-2009, 12:24 PM

Originally Posted by daveyjonesjr

The mec are supposed to be a conventional coalition army.....anyway If you say its legitimate tactics used in real life im not gonna arguee much, ill find ways around it

Conventional armies bomb planes on the runway so doing it during takeoff and landing should be no big deal.

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