Re: Mortar Testing Day

**ThirdSin** · 03-31-2011, 07:24 PM

We are single manning our mortars.... if they were crewed......

**Ytman** · 03-31-2011, 10:53 PM

Originally Posted by CR8Z

Those guys are getting rounds down range a lot faster than we can in game.

Its not too hard with a good FO and a crew that knows how to adjust shots out/in and right/left.

Today I worked in Chris' squad with mortars on Yamalia. Got a good 9 kills with Chris aiming me in the right direction and me adjusting left/right and up/down on my own as he called it. I'm falling away from the whole calculator fetish of mine, I really think that everything given in game combined with a little bit of understanding will aid with stellar accuracy after the second/third shot.

Of course I would never have known any of these 'adjustments' had I not worked on the calculator. For those interested keep an eye open for a Basic->Intermediate mortar class coming within the next 2 weeks. An advanced class is in the works but will require some decent dedication and either 1) a good memory or 2) decent math/geometry skills. I'm keeping my secrets for the classes.

**Ytman** · 04-04-2011, 06:32 PM

If anyone is interested for the time I'll be on today I can go over some of the math basics and general rules I've made. I want to test teaching the concepts I have planned for the class.

**BigGaayAl** · 04-05-2011, 12:19 AM

After reading some of this thread out of interest I feel disappointed. It reminds me very much of the pixel shooting with m203's we have in so many FPS games, like America's Army, where the pixelshooters would shoot you in spawn immediatly at the round's start.

THere is nothing against practicing and learning the tools the game gives you. But there is something to be said about using external calculators, and other tools.

If this is the way mortars are heading.... be prepared to have blind mortar shells falling on popular FOB locations etc in the first 5 min of a round. I'll explain.

If this line of thinking of overshooting the tools pr gives you continues (like the 50m inaccuracy devs intentionally put in to improve gameplay and subvert unrealistic abuse continues), we will end up with expert mortarsquads that know exatly how to hit any spot on the map without any spotters.

Mortars and CAS were implemented by the devs to be used only in coordination with the groundtroops. The system wasn't designed for the mortar to be pinpint accurate on first shots, but it was designed as firesupport in direct cooperation with infantry squadleaders or snipers prehaps. Having the mortar be very accurate risks ruining the gameplay.
TG: play the game it's meant to be played.

**NorthPlum** · 04-05-2011, 03:25 AM

Well personally I don't really care for this tool. Mortars are freaking accurate as they are, just making them a little more accurate won't be a game changer IMHO. Plus I don't want to read a 40 page manual!

**Ytman** · 04-05-2011, 03:38 PM

Originally Posted by BigGaayAl

After reading some of this thread out of interest I feel disappointed. It reminds me very much of the pixel shooting with m203's we have in so many FPS games, like America's Army, where the pixelshooters would shoot you in spawn immediatly at the round's start.

Mortars and CAS were implemented by the devs to be used only in coordination with the groundtroops. The system wasn't designed for the mortar to be pinpint accurate on first shots, but it was designed as firesupport in direct cooperation with infantry squadleaders or snipers prehaps. Having the mortar be very accurate risks ruining the gameplay.
TG: play the game it's meant to be played.

There is a good deal of difference between spawn camping in an unrealistic fashion and using a basic ruler to measure distance. The devs, many times, have said pythagorean is a really important formula. By just using ingame logic you can come to the exact same conclusions as this program. Hell, with a little bit of work I can make a ruler that would be able to read distance if I just put it up to my monitor (probably faster), would this not be simulating real calculations of a Fire Control Team?

That being said, I do think and feel that mortars are very accurate already. The biggest issue with mortars right now is how poorly the community as a whole treat them. This isn't just the basic operation of them (many times I've seen an operator misread his depression) but with the communication of them. Just yesterday many times people were calling for mortar fire on a very stationary target, however, whenever I would have the tubes to bare the person requesting the mission would completely forget about it or would give me a useless adjustment "Uhm too far out." "Well how far out?" "I don't know, move right"

Really? Come on.

The mortar class I'm working on will be placing as much, if not more of, an emphasis on proper Request SoP and Fire Adjustment SoP.

You call that mortar mission in? You have volunteered to be a FO until the mission is to cease! None of this: "Mortar squad hit this target" Five minutes later "Oh way to go Mortars you were off ALL the time and got us killed because you couldn't hit the enemy right!"

**chrisweb89** · 04-05-2011, 05:37 PM

So Al, if you know where the other team is, you shouldn't attempt to kill them until you have friendlies nearby? If I spot a FB lets say on muttrah die and as I respawn call the grid out to the team and get mortars to fire 6 rounds at it, whats wrong with doing that? The devs openly encourage ways of findiing more accurate ranges than the 50m gap, thats why they put in the tips menu that you can use a^2 + b^2= c^2. If you don't wan the other team geussing your positions and preparing firemissions on likely positions, don't go in the obviuous spot(I'm not saying you specifically, nor am I saying you are doing anything wrong building in a spot like triangle on muttrah, its a very nice spot). Just because the other team is smart and able to geuss where the other team will be, why shouldn't they be able to fire there? It may be a waste of ammo, longertime fireing means easier to find and even with a bit of math unless the map is perfectly flat or you use a special program there will still be slight problems with accuracy, but nothing that a bit of mortar deviation doesn't already solve.

As a last point Al, I can already hit enemy location with simply an attack mark and mortar mission with 0 eyes on, and I never use mortars. A lot of the time when spotting the first few rounds are either dead on or its just deviation pushing them all around the target. The extra math helps, but it really doesn't give you any advantage that you don't already have. Heres a link that I found while reading threads with some nice info http://www.od-sierra.org/L4gi/rangecard.pdf

**Ytman** · 04-05-2011, 05:42 PM

For those interested.

http://www.tacticalgamer.com/battlef...ml#post1609255

**ThirdSin** · 04-05-2011, 07:02 PM

I don't know. Have it your way I suppose, but i'm with Al. PR isn't a milsim. Don't think it was ever meant to be. I think it was designed to be better than BF2, more realistic yes, a milsim? No. I still think too much thought is going into perfecting something in the game 'by all means necessary'. Again, if this really makes it 'fun' for you, do your thing.

**BigGaayAl** · 04-05-2011, 08:59 PM

Hmm-

In response to Chris' post. What you say about the devs encouraging ways of calculating out the 50m accuracy nerf on distance location. I think we have a case of different devs with different intentions here. I mean why nerf the accuracy of a tool on purpose and then encourage complicated ways of circumventing it. This makes no sense at all.

I'm not going into the part where you sort of tried to ridicule what I said with the whole "can I shoot the enemy if this and that". You shouldn't feign that you don't understand what I am saying; I think you do.

I'll quote myself to repeat something that I should've put in bold.

"There is nothing against practicing and learning the tools the game gives you."

All I wanted to convey to the people in this thread is to be cautious of not trying to get every last advantage you can get in a game, because it is my experience from over 15 years of playing online FPS games that there is this point where people get too good at the mechanics of a game so that the immersive qualities of the game, and a lot of the fun is lost.

America's Army was a real good example for this as I stated. You spawn, M203 kills you because lots of the players new exactly where to place their pixel and when to shoot you from across map.

You do what you want and how you want to do it Chris. I really wish you much pleasure with it too. I'm just saying: hey, think about where it might lead and whether you really want that.

I myself lately have been having most fun with noobs on various servers even. It is surprising to me how much more immersive an experience this can be compared to always playing with veterans, like most of us here are.

*vigorously rooting for 128 TG SERVER!!!*

Ooh before I forget: the reason I actually even opened this thread is that I discovered and tested that the insurgent mortar has a spread (at close range at least of about 100m diameter. So as ins, putting your shells roughly on is more than enough. /But then most people must have known this for a long time

**chrisweb89** · 04-05-2011, 09:12 PM

It may not make sense, but they put it in the tips for some reason, so its possible for others to use.

If my response to what you said about mortars hitting enemy locations before friendlies have already found them(a usual FB place as in your example) didn't respond to what you were talking about, then I missudnerstood what you attemped to say or maybe you missunderstood my answer. I was trying to say this can be done anyways with relatively good effects, the deviation on mortars will hit everything within 50m, unless there is a large height difference. This constant firing and large barrages also has its downsides like I sadi such as ammo use and everyone can hear you for a longer time and more easily hunt you. Do you have a problem with firing where you geuss the enemies will be or using some math and breaking the keypads down to gain more accurate results?

**BigGaayAl** · 04-05-2011, 09:47 PM

But why put in the tips if you put effort into coding to make it more difficult? It only makes sense to me if different devs are in disagreemen; one decides to make it more difficult, another shares his workaround on the forum... THat is what must have gone down behind the scenes.

*About firing on places where the enemy usually puts fobs.
Now this is a choice everyone has to make. But when you do this, you draw experience from countless games on what the enemy usually does.
This is.... how can I explain. ... I am a mec soldier. I take a truck. I drive to safe spot to build fob for team. Boom I'm dead. I didn't see an enemy, none of them saw me or knew I might be here. But they killed me because they have played this game so much they can predict me.

It is allowed, but does this increase the fun had in the community?

"Do you have a problem with firing where you geuss the enemies will be or using some math and breaking the keypads down to gain more accurate results?" I have no problem with this specific case. But I think it makes the experience on a whole for everyone playing with us ... less fun.

**NorthPlum** · 04-05-2011, 10:33 PM

Originally Posted by BigGaayAl

But why put in the tips if you put effort into coding to make it more difficult? It only makes sense to me if different devs are in disagreemen; one decides to make it more difficult, another shares his workaround on the forum... THat is what must have gone down behind the scenes.

*About firing on places where the enemy usually puts fobs.
Now this is a choice everyone has to make. But when you do this, you draw experience from countless games on what the enemy usually does.
This is.... how can I explain. ... I am a mec soldier. I take a truck. I drive to safe spot to build fob for team. Boom I'm dead. I didn't see an enemy, none of them saw me or knew I might be here. But they killed me because they have played this game so much they can predict me.

Well to be honest, I've never really seen this done in-game. You can already do this in-game but I have never seen something like that done before. And you can already do this (edit: whoops I said that three times)

, I don't see why this 'calculator' helps you achieving that goal except more accurately and since mortars have a fairly large blast radius, you don't have to be that much out anyway. - Like you stated in your previous post. So I don't get why this discussion has come up, since you already do it without the use of this calculator.

**Ytman** · 04-05-2011, 10:41 PM

That is the inherent problem with 2km maps and even 1km maps. On a 4km map this is hardly an issue and can't really be exploited.

Also I'd suggest that the core places people put FOs aren't always good and should be mortared repeatedly until people realize that you need to change a gameplan somewhat.
I think you guys are overestimating the deviation of the mortars, they are very accurate and do require accurate adjustments if off target even slightly. Normally such adjustments are as easy as left/right.

**BigGaayAl** · 04-05-2011, 10:45 PM

I was really not trying to tell anyone what to do sirs, I was just trying to make people consciouss of a problem that might arise, with or without calculator.

I think I have reached this goal now

.