Re: Addressing an issue.....

**DudeMan** · 04-16-2007, 10:13 AM

Originally Posted by ednos

People, like myself, who have proven their incompetence should be put on probation: exclusion from having said opportunity until properly trained. I have lost no fewer than three and no more than five games for my team as CO (I don't remember how many times I've done it, but I know I've never won).

i tell you what, the very fact that you are concerned about how many YOU lost for the team, means you will be a great comander, once familiarized with the operation which takes like 2 rounds, you are already concious of the decisions you make affecting others, good CO IMO.... its the people that just dont give a damn and send squads to their death rather than organise properly that should be on probation.... lol

**Terminal Boy** · 04-16-2007, 11:14 AM

Originally Posted by ednos

People, like myself, who have proven their incompetence should be put on probation: exclusion from having said opportunity until properly trained. I have lost no fewer than three and no more than five games for my team as CO (I don't remember how many times I've done it, but I know I've never won).

Did you learn from your mistakes?

I still haven't played anywhere near as many rounds of PRM as the TG regulars have, but I know that a CO who's trying and making a few mistakes is far, far better than no CO at all!

**7ShadesOSin** · 04-16-2007, 01:26 PM

Originally Posted by DudeMan

i tell you what, the very fact that you are concerned about how many YOU lost for the team, means you will be a great comander, once familiarized with the operation which takes like 2 rounds, you are already concious of the decisions you make affecting others, good CO IMO.... its the people that just dont give a damn and send squads to their death rather than organise properly that should be on probation.... lol

Yep, I second this.

I'll be a bit of a hypocrite here, because I find CO'ing daunting at the moment because of my lack of familiarity with the maps and such, so I don't do it - BUT, I would rather have a green CO who tried his best than no CO at all, and if SL'ing, would do everything I could to positively encourage and help out the CO - just because I know how daunting it can be.

Everyone has to start somewhere, right?

**|TG|SugarNCamo** · 04-16-2007, 01:54 PM

Originally Posted by 7ShadesOSin

Yep, I second this.

I'll be a bit of a hypocrite here, because I find CO'ing daunting at the moment because of my lack of familiarity with the maps and such, so I don't do it - BUT, I would rather have a green CO who tried his best than no CO at all, and if SL'ing, would do everything I could to positively encourage and help out the CO - just because I know how daunting it can be.

Everyone has to start somewhere, right?

Omg. How do I agree with this, let me count the ways....

CO'ing IS a daunting task, but, as one who used to regularly step forward, I must say it can be very rewarding... like an orchestra conductor making beautiful music! I wish more people would step up to CO when there isn't one and feel comfortable to say "Hey SLs, I'm new.. I might tell you to go somewhere illogical, so give me some feedback about what you would do." It would definitely lessen the "Our CO is a noob./These SLs won't listen." commentary.

**Belhade** · 04-16-2007, 02:52 PM

I tend to step into the CO role to hide my incompetence with a rifle.

After a few rounds at it, though, sometimes successful COing comes down to simply leading squads to the right flags, especially on pubbie days when many people don't understand the concept of AAS.

**Morganan** · 04-16-2007, 03:23 PM

Originally Posted by ednos

People, like myself, who have proven their incompetence should be put on probation: exclusion from having said opportunity until properly trained. I have lost no fewer than three and no more than five games for my team as CO (I don't remember how many times I've done it, but I know I've never won).

There are simply so many variables involved in CO'ing that it is very difficult to discern the good from bad CO's. The most important aspect of Co'ing is a simple one most people forget...

The CO is only as good as his squads in the field. You can give all the orders you want, and your team can follow them exactly how you wish but none of that instantly translates to a win. I've CO'ed maps where people on my team gave me a big pat on the back and told me, "you are a great commander" because we won by a huge margin and I've CO'ed on maps where we got pinned into our main and I felt like the worst CO ever. I am here to say I am not a "great" commander anymore then I am a crappy one. There are winners and loosers in every game, don't forget that and get discouraged from getting a few in the "L" column. A commander can only put people in a position to succeed, the troops on the ground still have to win the fights.

**ednos** · 04-16-2007, 03:50 PM

Originally Posted by DudeMan

i tell you what, the very fact that you are concerned about how many YOU lost for the team, means you will be a great comander, once familiarized with the operation which takes like 2 rounds, you are already concious of the decisions you make affecting others, good CO

I may have good intentions, but that's not enough to make me good at what I do. I also intend to write well, but I can still barely form a coherent sentence. It's not that I'm unfamiliar with the interface, either. I used to CO all the time for Vanilla BF2, and I did alright, although most squads ignored the commander entirely.

Originally Posted by Terminal Boy

Did you learn from your mistakes?

I still haven't played anywhere near as many rounds of PRM as the TG regulars have, but I know that a CO who's trying and making a few mistakes is far, far better than no CO at all!

That's one of the problems. I have trouble figuring out where I went wrong. I do agree that no CO at all is worse, since all communication between squads is limited to text. However, I still give everyone fair warning before I step up. (I'm sure you've seen me send my message in all caps: "WARNING: IF NO ONE STEPS UP NOW, YOU RISK HAVING ME AS CO.")

Originally Posted by 7ShadesOSin

I'll be a bit of a hypocrite here, because I find CO'ing daunting at the moment because of my lack of familiarity with the maps and such, so I don't do it - BUT, I would rather have a green CO who tried his best than no CO at all, and if SL'ing, would do everything I could to positively encourage and help out the CO - just because I know how daunting it can be.

It's not really daunting to me, since it's just a game in the end, and if I fail, it's only disappointing, not the cause of actual deaths. I don't mind that people know I'm bad, either, because claiming otherwise would put me in the smacktard category. Familiarity with the maps isn't a problem either, since I only apply to be the CO on maps I've played a bunch and studied the maps a little. The only one I'll never try is Al Basrah, since that map just confuses me too much.

Originally Posted by |TG|SugarNCamo

I wish more people would step up to CO when there isn't one and feel comfortable to say "Hey SLs, I'm new.. I might tell you to go somewhere illogical, so give me some feedback about what you would do."

Yeah, I usually introduce myself as new to the position of CO when I play. Also, when I try the SL position (only when the only two or three squads are full or locked), I usually name my squad "NOOB SL". This gives people fair warning.

Originally Posted by Morganan

it is very difficult to discern the good from bad CO's. The most important aspect of Co'ing is a simple one most people forget...

The CO is only as good as his squads in the field. You can give all the orders you want, and your team can follow them exactly how you wish but none of that instantly translates to a win. ... A commander can only put people in a position to succeed, the troops on the ground still have to win the fights.

The excellent COs always win; the good COs are dependent on their troops; the bad COs always lose. I've played with some very competent squads, people I have to keep apologizing to because either I have to issue too many orders or because I have to keep them on defense, as they're the only competent players able to hold a flag. I was the CO once in a round where I had six squads who all did their jobs perfectly every time, and still we lost the map in tickets, although we held most of the flags.

**Morganan** · 04-16-2007, 04:52 PM

I respectfully disagree Ednos...

The commander is the coordinator, planner and organizer, nothing more or less. A commander can "loose" the map by not doing those 3 things, but even when he does those things the men on the ground who are capping flags and shooting the enemy are the only ones who "win" the map for a team. The best you can do is make things easy for them by properly supporting them, but in the end they are the ones on the sharp end doing the dirty work to get the job done.

**mingmong** · 04-16-2007, 05:19 PM

Agreed. The commander augments a good side - he doesn't create one. He can turn a decent team into a good one, and a good one into an amazing one, but he doesn't turn a loss into a win. It's the team that does that.

**Ferris Bueller** · 04-16-2007, 06:20 PM

Both ednos and morganan's arguments are right in different situations.

If you have an excellent commander, or even a good one, he can direct battlefield action and keep things flowing as far as organization and strategy is concerned. A bad CO will simply throw the squads into disarray and it's a surefire loss. However, you can have the best CO in the world and still lose due to lack of teamplay on the squad level. You can also win games without even having a CO.

The important thing to remember is that regardless of your skill level, you're still allowed to play whatever role you want here. If you want to take a turn at CO, you're welcome to it. If the person commanding isnt doing an up-to-par job, remember that TG is as much of a learning environment as it is a competitive one. Instruct people that need help, give them suggestions. Barking orders is just a surefire way to make them mad or scare them off. The only way to get anywhere in any game is to learn.

So in essence, there is no such thing as a BAD commander around here. "bad" gets divided into two precise groups: troublemakers and inexperienced. An inexperienced commander just needs the help and support of his team, namely the squad leaders. A troublemaking CO generally gets the boot. Help your team.

**BigGaayAl** · 04-16-2007, 10:05 PM

One tip for everyone doubting his effectiveness as a co: start out by only giving orders that are very obvious, and likely to have a positive effect.

Together with the support of supplies and artillery this will make you a decent co from the get go.

An example could be, asking (before ordering to be careful) a squad that is caught on the wrong side of the map to make their way back, and if you can have some one pick them up.

Good co round can be built up gradually.

**tHa_KhAn** · 04-17-2007, 09:55 AM

I agree with Al, just a little direction is all it takes sometimes. How many maps have the entire team running toward one flag? If there was a CO who took a minute to direct the squads to different flags it can mean the difference in a descent game or a crushing loss, but atleast the team had a chance with the CO directing.

**IOOB_583** · 04-20-2007, 09:28 AM

There's some winners out there. While my squad was fighting to hold onto fishing village the other day I received an order to pull my squad back to outpost?????? I questioned it and was told "follow your orders." Outpost being the last flag to defend I did my best to tell him, respectfully, that I would not pull my squad back but was hit with INSUBORDINATION types of comments. So I then directed my squad to pull out back to outpost after which he re-negged but still went about making half ast comments about not following orders and how we should call in artillery on our own men. Trying to get us to pick off one of our own particular teamembers for some reason.

If your taking CO for a power trip you should just move along. Maybe Monopoly is more your speed. I dropped out of the SL spot because I could no longer take the drivel coming out of the Com channel.

On the flip side - there are many up and coming stars who do a great job of direction and understand that every little thing cannot be followed to the enth degree. I have been getting some good squad members lately who will sit on a flag with me and wait for an attack and I try to do my best to keep them informed about what the CO is saying so they don't think I am just nuts for sitting there. Most of the good CO's also seem to do a great job of keeping the defenders informed about enemy movement also, instead of getting tunnel vision on the next target, so that both the attacking and defending squads have half a chance of getting the job done.

**msdz** · 04-21-2007, 04:33 PM

I have only tried CO once. Of course I took that position cause no one else wanted to and our team was losing badly. The SL asked if someone would take the position as CO so they could utilize the arty. I took the CO position and about 2 minutes after taking that CO position our arty was taken down. I tried my best to get people to repair it but no one would, so me being inexperienced at CO I decided to come back after being killed as a combat engineer to try to repair my teams arty. That was useless of course. I was only CO for about 10 minutes. I really respect the good CO now and compliment them on a job well done when our team wins.

**fuzzhead** · 04-21-2007, 04:44 PM

commander position is much more about using arty

in fact, v0.6 will have very few (possibly only 2) maps that have vanilla arty. since we cannot change the reload times or the amount of arty dropped, we dont want to use vanilla arty as we feel its cheap and unrealistic (along with the super level of zoom, which we would be removing if we could find out how)

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