Re: The use of Racial names!

**Steeler** · 05-09-2007, 03:58 PM

There is a big difference between forcing adherence to a politically correct standard and simply asking people not to act like jackasses. If anyone here has any doubts about what is and isn't acceptable at TG, I suggest 2 courses of action:

1. Read the Basic Rules of Conduct again.

2. Listen to what your fellow gamers are telling you. If they are offended by something you do, stop doing it. It's not about pleasing everyone, it's about pleasing the people with whom you have chosen to spend your recreational time. If you can't do that, go somewhere else.

**IOOB_583** · 05-09-2007, 03:59 PM

That's the rub here as far as I am concerned. While horsing around on the server and blastin stuff back and forth, in the squad and most of the time just to get a chuckle out of someone, is that where the whole thing is headed with the original post. That's part of the way I read it and then there's the naming issue which, I must agree, can be a bit gruesome at times.

The squad chat, the way I read the first post, is the main concern to myself at least. As I told DB in a PM I am an equal opportunity offender. Everyone gets it when they are on the other team. If I have offended my squadies, which I am sure I have from time to time (especially when I tell them to get the hell over here), then you have my apologies.

To me, personally, playing in game you put your gameface on - all the other guys are the characters you see running around. The only inkling you have of who or what they are is on the voip. It can run the gambit from jokes to cursing to just laughing about one nade taking out the entire squad while we huddle around the medic for our "repairs." But, hey, what do I know.

**sordavie** · 05-09-2007, 04:17 PM

Originally Posted by IOOB_583

It can run the gambit from jokes to cursing to just laughing about one nade taking out the entire squad while we huddle around the medic for our "repairs." But, hey, what do I know.

These things are quite different from using racial epithets in game. There's evidence that racial epithets are quite a different kind of thing than what we'd normally think as being un-PC. When doing their act, professional comedians are perhaps the least PC of all people. And, yet there seems to be a lot less leeway for them in the case of racial epithets even when the context is one where everyone is aware that this is a comedy act--see Michael Richards.

That one can pretending to kill people with virtual guns is quite different than pretending to be racist with real racial epithets. While it's clear you can do the former--we do it all the time when playing the video games--it's not so clear you can do the latter. You might not be able to do the latter in the same sense in which you can't pretend to kill while using a real gun with real bullets. No matter how much you try to pretend you're killing them, when you actually fire the gun and the bullet hits their head they're going to die. You just can't pretend in this way. I think this is what happens with racial epithets. It's the reason why there's a lot less leeway for white comedians to point and call a black audience member a racial epithet, even if they can say all sorts of other derogatory things to audience members. This is why I don't think you can pretend to be racist by using real racial epithets.

[edit] vvvvvvvvv Good point Atomic Dog. I should modify my hypothesis to the public sphere. It might be suspended in some cases of private jokes between a close knit group of friends. It still applies in the case of online games. However, I doubt this will be true all of the time. Even among close friends such joking might not be comfortable for everyone.

**Atomic Dog** · 05-09-2007, 04:21 PM

I have friends from all sorts of racial backgrounds (I'm hispanic myself). There's a few where bantering racial jokes back and forth is pretty much ritualistic, habitual and fun. But the thing is...those are my friends. They know me, I know them...we're comfortable with doing this because we know there's no harm or foul in doing so. But believe me, I wouldn't just start joking like that with a complete stranger.

In the kind of atmosphere that online gaming brings, these kind of jokes can be taken very very seriously by someone without your even knowing it. Which is why this kind of public forum (in-game or on the forums) really isn't the place for that kind of humor.

**Portable.Cougar** · 05-09-2007, 04:22 PM

allah ackbar...

sure this is just arabic for god is great, but if you really want to get into this debate than this is the worst offence of all. I know there are prior active duity [TG] members on the sever as I myslef am.

When some 14 year old kid with a computer slams into a tank colom and then types "ALLAH ACKBAR" hes not using it to explane that he loves "God". Hes doing it because thats what the "they" do. We're talking mostly people who have no experance in the military or are not old enough to understand that the people on the youtube viedos they watch are "real". With real familys and real lifes.

So do I have a issue with that one, a little. Does it keep me up at night? No.

I dont think that a little imersion hurts anyone. Will you ever see my type or yell Allah Ackbar? Nope, but if someone else in my squad does it Ill just mute them and carry on.

**Switch** · 05-09-2007, 04:33 PM

I just wrote up a funny post making fun of everyone and now I'm afraid to post

Regardless -- we all have some common sense about what is actually offensive and what is easy going humor. If you know better (which you do) then don't go too far.

And 'allah akbar' is probably the worst thing we say, but since the world is at a consensus right now that says we are allowed to hate the middle east and their beliefs no one seems to notice.

**phorcast** · 05-09-2007, 04:37 PM

Intent matters, and I think Atomic Dog cuts to the heart of the issue - that intent is hard to properly communicate online - it's hard enough when face-to-face.

IOOB: seems like you're taking the burden of this thread onto yourself... as far as I'm concerned... Don't! You're top-flight TG! At least when I've been your squaddie. That you've taken it upon yourself to make apologies speaks to the top-flight-ness even further.

I'm into Whiskey's suggestion: "contacts" makes good sense, and for some reason sounds... professional? Not sure... see you folks in the game... hope I don't id you as a contact

-Phorcast

**Sam Hoy** · 05-09-2007, 05:10 PM

I have noticed more and more that people...including some TG members using racial slander when refering to the different BF2 factions. There were countless times in where I hear the words "chink", "gook", "chinamen", and "slant eyes" when they are refering to the chinese. Me being half-korean, this is EXTREMELY racist and a complete disregard to the SOP's.

It isn't only refering to the Chinese faction either. The MEC side gets it also.

We need to start governing ourselves when we hear such things.

If you are in a sqaud and you hear...

"I've got four gooks running to the east"

Your first response should be...

those names are appropriate on this server, please dont use them again.

This may have been brought up earlier but I definitely think that should read "inappropriate".

**Grunt 70** · 05-09-2007, 05:23 PM

Originally Posted by Switch

.... but since the world is at a consensus right now that says we are allowed to hate the middle east and their beliefs no one seems to notice.

That's a fairly wide and sweeping generalizaton don't you think? I don't hate anyone from the middle east just some of their radical extremism. I believe in recgonizing the good in all people and in all religions and I sincerly hope others would do the same. Anything less will lead to the eventual destruction of humankind. Maybe not in my lifetime but ....

Propigating hate anywhere is offensive to me. As a parent of a 23 y/o, 14 y/o and a 4 y/o I would never tell them they are allowed to hate someone else because their beliefs are different than our own.

But with personal philosophies aside...you are spot on about the insincere use of Allah Akbar. To those that believe, God is great, but I agree with you that those uttering these words in game aren't being true to it's ultimate meaning. Sadly I'm guilty myself of this transgression and will pledge from this thread forward to cease and desist. My apologies to any of our TG brothers who may be Muslim if I've offended you with this religious disrepect.

**Ferris Bueller** · 05-09-2007, 05:25 PM

Guys, this could have been solved without 3 pages of debate and expansion through this simple explanation:

TG is a community of mature gamers. This doesnt mean that "hey, we're adults so we can take it when people say non-PG rated, non-PC things". This means we're old enough to KNOW BETTER than to say those kinds of things. If you see someone doing something inappropriate, regardless of how your personal feelings on it run, you still need to do something about it. We just finished up a thread about how the standard on the PR server has fallen to what some people would consider unacceptable levels by TG standards. The common ruling was that EVERYONE needs to do their part to help clean up. We all know the rules. If someone utters a racial slur, uses an offensive name or does ANYTHING else that goes against our policies or rules, you need to do something about it. It doesnt matter if someone says something that you dont find offensive, or if its something you do yourself on occasion. The bottom line is that you know better and as a member of this community you have the power to do something to stop it, so do it.

This isnt negotiable logic. Theres no gray area. We all know what racial epithets sound like. We're all old enough to tell the difference between good and bad terminology. TG doesnt discriminate against ANY ethnicity or belief, so therefore NO actions of that nature are "legal" or "allowed", regardless of what your personal beliefs are about world events or anything else. We all know the appropriate actions to take. This is very simple. Do what needs to be done and play with the level of maturity that is EXPECTED AND REQUIRED of TG members.

That is all. Carry on.

**ikill4aliving** · 05-09-2007, 05:26 PM

i have heard the term 'yankee' when referring to the USMC, but i have bot really paid attention to it, but is that racist or not so much? i will be sure to use the REPORTING: player reason if i see/hear anything racist/innapropriate being said

**Belhade** · 05-09-2007, 05:40 PM

Also, dude, chinaman is not the preferred nomenclature. Asian-American, please.

Sorry, just had to be said.

**Dirtboy** · 05-09-2007, 05:49 PM

Originally Posted by Switch

I just wrote up a funny post making fun of everyone and now I'm afraid to post

Originally Posted by Belhade

Also, dude, chinaman is not the preferred nomenclature. Asian-American, please.Sorry, just had to be said.

Originally Posted by Plan6

Now heres the real question, I've heard a few of our British buddies call Americans colonials. Is this ok?

Originally Posted by IOOB_583

"DIE you ethnically diverse/different sexual orientation/person who doesnt believe in the same god I do/son of a gun" just doesnt have the same ring to it.

I knew people were gonna start making a mockery on this matter. I came here to voice my concerns and this is kind of response I get. Whatever, I am done here!!!!!!!

**stickyjeans69** · 05-09-2007, 07:03 PM

?, i honestly don't think those where meant to make fun of the post Dirtboy. some terms like Yank, Colonials etc. can be offensive to people, i take offense to yank for that matter............... as far as switches post goes, i think he may have thought about it, but quickly found..............not the right place and showed he does care about the matter..............maybe just not as much, wrong of me to speak for him though thats just my thoughts/opinion

**ChernobylKinsman** · 05-09-2007, 07:10 PM

The Colonial thing.. I find it hard to see what is offensive about that, certainly not on the level of racism, it is a light-hearted and often affetionate term. As for Yank, it's used in the US as well as outside, I wouldn't consider it offensive without a modifier before it, such as stupid yank, no? Slang and racism are different things. Intent does play a big part, but racial terms in general can be offensive reguardless of intent.

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