Re: Flag Cap status: GRAY question

**mingmong** · 05-15-2007, 02:16 PM

Alright, I'm thoroughly confused. If the rules stipulate that the UCB rules apply only to the last flag in the order, where's the sense in that? Vehicles on maps like Steel thunder (Mobile AA and APCs) and especially Kyongan Ni (all of the US heavy equipment) aren't covered in that rule, so it's fair game to camp the enemy's equipment on those maps?

**Morganan** · 05-15-2007, 02:20 PM

On Kyongan Ni, the outpost actually is the last flag that is cappable. (which coincidentally is where the armor spawns)

**mingmong** · 05-15-2007, 02:27 PM

Right. So if a map has a "real" UCB it can be considered as having two of them?

**Sabre_Tooth_Tigger** · 05-15-2007, 02:40 PM

Sounds like its overcomplicated again. Theres no good reason to occupy a flag you cant capture imo.

Just so we're clear, imo its not valid for the uk to occupy and spawn kill at trenches from the start of the map on ghost train.
Its not the last flag but its not capturable till south and north bridge are captured either

**Root** · 05-15-2007, 05:10 PM

Originally Posted by Sabre_Tooth_Tigger

Just so we're clear, imo its not valid for the uk to occupy and spawn kill at trenches from the start of the map on ghost train.
Its not the last flag but its not capturable till south and north bridge are captured either

I've seen times when a squad has been lurking around that area waiting for it to come in play. Trenches isn't the main base so there's no rule against a squad sitting inside the flag radius ready for it to come into play. Personallym if I led a squad doing that we'd be on condition red and well hidden but there's more than one way to win a battle.

**Morganan** · 05-15-2007, 06:16 PM

Originally Posted by mingmong

Right. So if a map has a "real" UCB it can be considered as having two of them?

I think it is safe to say any flag beyond the "next flag" in the order is an UCB and should be treated as such.

Ghost train for example, if brits hold Nbridge and are fighting for Sbridge, it is the "next flag". Until Sbridge goes grey, you have no buisness starting fights at that flag, but returning fire is always acceptable. Once Sbridge goes grey and Nbridge is still under brit control, then trenches/train are open game. That is how I percieve the rules in their current state.

Although I will always follow the rules, I think this entire issue is a case of someone wanting to be a "rules lawyer". Artillery is never unmanned in the real world yet killing your teammates like it always is in this game. Artillery always has a security force protecting it in the real world, yet you cannot possibly allocate manpower for this task when you have a plethora of objectives and limited manpower in this game. Therefore it is far from a "real world" tactic, it's more like cherry picking.

Lets be honest here, the only reason it is ok to destroy artillery and it is not ok to destroy vehicles in their spawn is because the rules were simply transferred from vanilla to PR. In vanilla artillery is something only the commander uses, not every squad-leader. It doesn't really "hurt everyones gameplay experience", only 1 person's. In PR artillery is useless unless the SL's actually call for it when it is ready to fire. Therefore it is really a "team asset" much like the vehicles are. In Vanilla every map to my memory has artillery, only a choice few do in PR. (even going to be less maps with arty come .6) Yet a sniper for example who's main job is to kill enemy snipers and enemy officers can't kill someone who obviously is the field commander trying to command his troops from the field, you know, like they do in real life. (nobody can deny after scouting a base thru binoc's or the scope for a minute or 2 you can't easily discern who is the commander)

Simply put, it doesn't simulate any real world situation when 1 guy can sneak into an unmanned artillery battery that has been raining fire down on his buddies and take it out.

**Root** · 05-15-2007, 06:24 PM

Originally Posted by Morganan

I think it is safe to say any flag beyond the "next flag" in the order is an UCB and should be treated as such.

That's simply not the rule as it stands. There are tactical reasons for a deep-strike team depending on the COs overall plan.

**Morganan** · 05-15-2007, 07:00 PM

Originally Posted by Root

That's simply not the rule as it stands. There are tactical reasons for a deep-strike team depending on the COs overall plan.

Sure, in the real world, but not in this game. Also then what about people employing "deep-strike" missions in this game when they have no commander to give them that order, or the other side has no commander to employ the artillery? (I say artillery since there is no reason to use a covert deep-strike team in this game on this server beyond destroying artillery, anything else is either against the server rules to touch, or not worth risking a ticket over, and a recon team wouldnt be considered a "deep-strike team" would it?).

Wouldn't destroying enemy artillery when the enemy team has no commander follow the same basic arguement one might use for destroying an un-used enemy tank in it's base? (someone might use this against my team any minute!)

**Sabre_Tooth_Tigger** · 05-15-2007, 07:02 PM

Is there an admin who could say one way or the other.

edit:

In fact admin allready made it clear in post #4 of this thread:
http://www.tacticalgamer.com/battlef...tml#post704645

**Lucky Shot** · 05-15-2007, 07:11 PM

http://www.tacticalgamer.com/704692-post10.html

Lucky Shot

**Root** · 05-15-2007, 07:11 PM

Originally Posted by Sabre_Tooth_Tigger

Is there an admin who could say one way or the other

They already have. The rule states that the UCB (or main base (singular) where no UCB exists) is the only flag that can't be attacked unless the HQ message says it's in play.

Originally Posted by Morganan

Sure, in the real world, but not in this game. Also then what about people employing "deep-strike" missions in this game when they have no commander to give them that order, or the other side has no commander to employ the artillery?

In-game my primary use for a deep strike squad is interdiction, with a secondary role of setting up the dominos. As for the lack of a CO, that's something we all need to address by stepping up. Where there's no CO it's down to the SLs. If a good SL takes their squad far behind enemy lines the team stands to benefit. If a bad SL does so then the team is no worse off than that same bad SL choosing a different course of action.

**Sabre_Tooth_Tigger** · 05-15-2007, 07:54 PM

Ok seems like no one can agree on this. Personally I go on the HQ messages because I think thats the spirit of the AAS system.

We have written BF2 rules but nothing specific to the PR mod ?

**Root** · 05-15-2007, 07:57 PM

Originally Posted by Sabre_Tooth_Tigger

Ok seems like no one can agree on this.

We have written BF2 rules but nothing specific to the PR mod ?

Lucky has provided a quote to the rule that applies to the PR server. As we have a rule there's no need for people to agree on anything, they just need to abide by the rule and the spirit of the TG primer.

**msdz** · 05-16-2007, 12:34 AM

What I hate is when you have a flag capped and go to the next flag and start capping it, the enemy come from no where and cap the flag you capped previously. So you and your squad will stick around in hopes the other upteen squads your team has will recap that flag back so you can continue capping the flag you are at when the enemy ambush you and your squad at that flag. Then after a fire fight and you walk away victorious the enemy start crying you aren;t supposed to be there YET. Well that flag was ready to be capped, so why RUN BACK when those other upteen squads and 20 some soldiers are all around the previous flag....cause you know as soon as you get back to help cap it you gotta just turn right back around to go where you just came from. It is like playing monkey in the middle, lol. Well, as long as that previous flag is still in the grayed state and I am at this other flag I will stay my ground, especially when I see on the mini map the whole team going to take that previous flag back leaving some other flag undefended, no map in mind but have seen this happen. The game needs to be played in a leap frog style to advance, such as men moving, they need to move in a leap frog style to advance and not leave nothing wide open or undefended that needs defending.
http://www.tacticalgamer.com/704692-post10.html
Just thought I would air this out, the free reign LuckyShot stated is not allowed or if it was then no one would have a gripe about anyone being at the flag ahead of the flag actually in play, ready for it to be taken. Should be people defending and attacking always, which I refer to the leap frog tactic.

**w.WAREHOUSE** · 05-16-2007, 01:45 AM

Originally Posted by msdz

What I hate is when you have a flag capped and go to the next flag and start capping it, the enemy come from no where and cap the flag you capped previously. So you and your squad will stick around in hopes the other upteen squads your team has will recap that flag back so you can continue capping the flag you are at when the enemy ambush you and your squad at that flag. Then after a fire fight and you walk away victorious the enemy start crying you aren;t supposed to be there YET. Well that flag was ready to be capped, so why RUN BACK when those other upteen squads and 20 some soldiers are all around the previous flag....cause you know as soon as you get back to help cap it you gotta just turn right back around to go where you just came from. It is like playing monkey in the middle, lol. Well, as long as that previous flag is still in the grayed state and I am at this other flag I will stay my ground, especially when I see on the mini map the whole team going to take that previous flag back leaving some other flag undefended, no map in mind but have seen this happen. The game needs to be played in a leap frog style to advance, such as men moving, they need to move in a leap frog style to advance and not leave nothing wide open or undefended that needs defending.
http://www.tacticalgamer.com/704692-post10.html
Just thought I would air this out, the free reign LuckyShot stated is not allowed or if it was then no one would have a gripe about anyone being at the flag ahead of the flag actually in play, ready for it to be taken. Should be people defending and attacking always, which I refer to the leap frog tactic.

I couldn't agree more with you msdz

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