Re: Command Structure Idea

**Razak644** · 03-17-2006, 02:40 PM

Hmmmmmm I have a feeling that this is an idea that may work on paper but not in game. For ranks to work you need a locked server with TG guys only. If the TG server is open to the public, they are not going to follow these rules and if you try to force them, they will leave and give the server bad raps. You can get them to have some teamwork but getting them to have ranks going to be rare.

Trying to convert this game into BF2 squad system for normal pick up games is going to be a complete mess. However it would work for a close nit clan or if you guys have a desinated group of people who play in matches.

Hey im all for tactical teamplay, but i think you guys are making things too difficult for normal pick up games. I say you desinate one person as squad leader at the beginning of the map and he or she chooses who does what. Where to place mg's, how many people need to be over in that posisition, etc...

**fldash** · 03-17-2006, 02:44 PM

they will leave and give the server bad raps

Those are exactly the players we don't want in our community or on our server. I respectfully disagree and think that pubbies that will fit well with our community will be aware of and follow the command structure. Everyone else will leave and that's fine too.

**asch** · 03-17-2006, 02:59 PM

I agree with Tzef.... on any server players may not like the style of our game and that's fine. There are those that will and become regulars.

Now the trick is an easy way to make these pubbies fall into our style of play since the game doesn't have built in mechanics to handle certain things.

I also concur with Razak.... that one thing BF2 made easy was the pick-up public games and organizing players so that teamwork was "easier". Dedicated TGers playing together can make this work... but the pick-up games will be more frustrating especially at the outset.

**Beatnik** · 03-17-2006, 03:23 PM

+rep Wulf. This is a great idea, even taking into considerations some of the limitations of the engine. I'll definitely do what I can to encourage use of the system. And it makes perfect sense because if you found yourself on the ground with a bunch of guys (think Band of Brothers and the botched drops of thousands of men), people not in their own squads worked together by following other officers.

One thing we could do to bring pubbies up to date with the system is just have an admin or TG regular announce the system at the start of every round. Server messages saying something to the effect of "Follow officer orders to enhance teamplay! Pick your rank and insert it into your screenname. Please visit www.tacticalgamer.com for more info..." could also bring new guys on board much quicker.

I really like this idea, at least on paper. Hopefully it will work in-game!

**perry** · 03-17-2006, 03:36 PM

Oh, oh, can I be the Jr. ROTC guy along to observe?!

**Santa** · 03-17-2006, 03:47 PM

Ill give it a go, but i think it just sounds good on paper but ultimately wont work in game. A lot of the time new people to the server (Which will be half the population, at least for the first month or two) wont have any idea how this system works. The remaining guys could easily all be privates because they hate leading. Not many people like leading. I think that once we do get a standard for strcuture, its gonna be a lot more fluid and done on the fly after each respawn. With that said ill still try this idea.

**ABPositive** · 03-17-2006, 03:50 PM

Originally Posted by TG_Santa

Not many people like leading.

This is good. We don't want an army of generals. As long as we have a ratio of 1 leader for 5 privates, we're good to go :-)

**Llyranor** · 03-17-2006, 05:20 PM

Good idea indeed. Though, like some others, I'm pretty skeptical about running this sort of scheme on an unpassworded server.

**Strag** · 03-17-2006, 07:28 PM

I had a chance to test this system just now with Wulfyn on Server #1. (He and I were the only ones wearing rank tags, so it's hard to say if others were really participating.) Wulfyn wore a Sgt tag and I wore a Cpl tag. I took orders from Wulfyn since he was the ranking player on the server. Some thoughts:

For me, knowing that Wulfyn was running the show made me pay very close attention to what he was saying on the Team VOIP channel. He was giving out the orders, so whenever I saw his VOIP icon pop up, I knew that something important was probably coming my way. Since I was a Cpl, he assigned me a group of players to work with. This worked decently for the player(s) who actually stuck near me, but it was hard to coordinate much since nobody else was using the system. In a larger setting, maybe an Lt could divide his team up into groups during the pre-round countdown, with two or three Sgts being in charge of the groups.

I think this system could work fairly well if more people would participate so we could work out the kinks. One very important thing will be making sure that everyone keeps strict comms discipline, especially on the Team VOIP channel. Today there were several people yelling almost constantly over the Team VOIP channel about how "this gun sucks!!" or "I can't believe he just shot me!!" or "how did I miss him?!?" This sort of chatter really doesn't help, regardless of the situation at hand.

I see this system working if the Lt uses the Team VOIP channel to communicate with his Sgts, and then the Sgts try to run their groups using the Local VOIP channel as much as possible. One thing that we could try doing more when using the Local VOIP channel is pass messages "down the line." If you hear someone say something of importance in the Local VOIP channel, try repeating if you think others nearby might not have heard it. This is done in real combat situations since it can be so difficult for people to hear clearly.

One thing I did as Cpl was try to call out my grid reference location on the Team VOIP channel intermittently when I was in a position but was separated from my team. This allowed my team to use me as a rally point, and it seemed a good way to do things.

We should try this out with more folks participating and with better comms discipline, but after today's short trial run I think it shows definite promise. If we learn it well enough on our passworded server to be comfortable with it, we should be able to take it to our public server and start using it there. I'm not saying it will be easy, but it could go a long way toward bringing some organization to that server.

**FriedFish** · 03-17-2006, 07:31 PM

Strag, when you were commanding your squad, did you use Local or Team to communicate with your squad?

**Strag** · 03-17-2006, 07:44 PM

Originally Posted by FriedFish

Strag, when you were commanding your squad, did you use Local or Team to communicate with your squad?

I used Local as much as I could with my group, except when announcing my grid location every so often. When talking to Wulfyn, I used the Team VOIP channel.

**Santa** · 03-17-2006, 07:54 PM

One thing is for certain, this structure or any other we come up with will never work if it doesnt get to the point where you can be kicked for not participating in it. Would we have the success that we had in BF2 without the ability to kick people for not being in squads?

However, i still like the idea of waiting in the spawn for at least 2 more people and moving on an objective as a squad of 3 or more. This would be easier if the reinforcement time could be increased, because then everyone that died in the last minute (usually at least 3 will have died) squad up together. In the spawn, the group can have someone step up to lead and the group can discuss briefly what objective they are going for, and from what direction they will approach. In the trench map a few days ago, i was spectating drunk and he was simply sitting in the spawn, looking around for people to spawn. 2 of us spawned, he led us south, and i believe we got the capture point. Let me just reiterate that the only way this will work is with a strict policy of kicking if someone doesnt obey, and a higher reinforcement time so that, generally, at least 3 people will spawn every time reinforcements come in.

Having constant squads with the same people in them throughout the round just doesnt work because i cant press tab to see who is in my squad, and the spawns just dont allow it to work. Heres an example. Im with my squad, approaching our objective. I get killed. The rest of the squad keeps pushing up, but i spawn all the way back at our main base. Now im forced to lonewolf it for a while until i meet up with my squad. But, because the game doesnt show me where the rest of my teamates are, I could be lonewolfing it for quite some time before i actually find my squad. The only way i see so far to get around this obstacle is to just make a new squad everytime you spawn. This will mean that every single time you spawn you will be with a squad, rather than trying to search for your teamates half the time.

I think a lot of us are too hung up on how BF2 did squads and the structure of it. Sure, its great, but it cant be done in a game that doesnt have the infrastructure available to set up squads that we can see in a handy chart. We dont have green dots on our minimap showing us where our squadmates are and how to locate them after we die. All of this is negated with fluid squads that are made up whenever reinforcements come in. And besides, its a lot easier to understand. Sit in your spawn, wait for people, and move out.

**DrunkenSoul** · 03-18-2006, 02:16 AM

I agree with Santa. We should try to enforce this idea across peoples minds. I think that this idea Wulf has came up with is great! I def. think that this has potential if people start using the tags. If more people use the tags, then others will be curious to what they are about and then will check the forums and start using them.
So lets see people pick a class (this is not binding) so we can get others involved (people dont want to be left out).

Also perhaps at the beginning of each round, I suggest that we try to break into 3/4 squads of 4 and a few speciality guys (snipers, LMG etc) [of course with 16 people] and once you die, you either form a new squad with those members or you go back to the original squad (if that squad got wiped out)
For example: You have Alpha with 4 members (2 SMG's, 2 rifleman) Bravo with 4 members (3 Rifle, 1 SMG) Charlie with 4 Members (1 SMG, 1 LMG, 2 Rifles) and Delta with (Sniper, 2 SMG, 1 rifleman). If you die, you form a new squad Echo (Unless one squad has been wiped out Example: if bravo is wiped out and a member of charlie dies, all 5 form the new bravo. This way team communication can be using Alpha to Bravo and so forth and squad comms can be done with local. (Tanks maps could use a variation of this).

**Llyranor** · 03-18-2006, 03:18 AM

Well, I put on my Pvt. cap. I also agree that this sort of structure will eventually need to be enforced.

**Ironsight** · 03-18-2006, 07:46 AM

I'm reluctant to stick my nose in here, being new to TG, but what the hell...

Squads and ranks as we are discussing them need to be fluid in terms of membership. When you die and respawn you should consider yourself a new reinforcement just entering the battlefield. You need to wait at the spawn point for your new squad to form up before moving out. Trying to run across the battlefield alone to rejoin your old squad is a waste of time and will most likely get you killed again on the way there.

Likewise if your squad mates are all killed and respawning then make a quick call on the Team channel to let the CO know your situation. "Pvt Ironsight alone in Bravo 6 awaiting orders". The CO will hopefully know the overall situation and can respond "Ironsight - move to Delta 6 and join Strag squad". Naming squads after the leader will be much easier IMO than using Nato designations since we use those for the map. It also lets the loner know what tag to look for. If th esquad leader dies then another member must step up and assume command. On the team channel you can say " Squad Santa now Squad Ironsight at Charlie 3". The CO can then adjust orders as needed.

Trying to make permanent squad assignments is too rigid for this game given the way it was designed, i.e. no built in command and control structure. When I respawn I won't know if my old squad members are still alive or where they are. We can't all being using Team chat to call out for them or the channel will be flooded. As someone mentioned if three privates spawn in then someone has to step up a rank or eles they all wait for a leader. The new squad can then let the CO know they are ready for orders " Squad Ironsight of 3 awaiting orders at Gold 2 spawn point." or something like that.

Just my 2 cents.

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