Re: I take it all back!

**TychoCelchuuu** · 07-30-2006, 01:43 AM

Originally Posted by asch

I don't know if it was a bug or feature, but in my case the name tags only appeared above the teammates head when I was three feet away looking directly at them. To me that is not realistic. I should be able to recognize a teammates face up to a certain distance. Now that distance can be debated, but I would wager most people can recognize a teammate twenty yards out.

Yes, realistically, you ought to know that's Bob. The problem is, if it drew player names farther out, you would be able to distinguish friend from foe without trying. The minor realism of knowing who is who would also add the major unrealism (eh) of not having to identify your target before you shoot.

As for the "go here" command, there's already a rally point thingy built into the game, and even easier, the entire map has grid squares so you can just call out Foxtrot Four or Alpha Six and everyone knows where to go. That is if, of course, there isn't some sort of recognizable landmark where you want to order people, which is unlikely in and of itself.

As for the hype, I agree with you (I think). At TG at least it seemed like people were pointing out that this would be a bad Battlefield 2 replacement, when the point should be that BF2 is a large-scale vehicular combat game whereas RO is a realistic World War 2 infantry and tank simulation. They're different games and I think we had a problem when people starting thinking "what am I doing, BF2 is better" rather than "this is fun, I should play this in addition to BF2." I think that happened not just because of the hype, but because of BF2's spectacular success. So many people's interaction with TG was limited to BF2 and only to BF2, it seemed to them that we were focused on one game.

**CingularDuality** · 07-30-2006, 02:54 AM

Originally Posted by asch

I don't know if it was a bug or feature, but in my case the name tags only appeared above the teammates head when I was three feet away looking directly at them. To me that is not realistic. I should be able to recognize a teammates face up to a certain distance. Now that distance can be debated, but I would wager most people can recognize a teammate twenty yards out.

The problem this caused was with communication. I should be able to look to my left and see "Bob" standing fifteen feet away. I know I can call out to "Bob". However, if I can't see that name tag then I have no idea who's there. More time was spent figuring out who was who than in organization.

Heh... I thought you were exaggerating when you said "3 feet and looking right at him", but after playing tonight, I must say, that is a gamekiller. If you don't know who is standing behind the bush just across the street, then how are you supposed to communicate with him? Get on local and say, "Hey! You by the bush! Can you hear me?" How many other players are by a bush? It was horrible...

**asch** · 07-30-2006, 02:59 AM

Originally Posted by TychoCelchuuu

Yes, realistically, you ought to know that's Bob. The problem is, if it drew player names farther out, you would be able to distinguish friend from foe without trying. The minor realism of knowing who is who would also add the major unrealism (eh) of not having to identify your target before you shoot.

I wouldn't consider communication to be minor. There are also ways to provide name tags without giving away friend or foe. Two possible options would be to put a few second delay into the name tag or make all name tags the same color. Either of those would allow you to have recognition and communicate.

To me, not being able to communicate is far more detrimental to teamwork.

As for the "go here" command, there's already a rally point thingy built into the game, and even easier, the entire map has grid squares so you can just call out Foxtrot Four or Alpha Six and everyone knows where to go. That is if, of course, there isn't some sort of recognizable landmark where you want to order people, which is unlikely in and of itself.

There is a rally point feature in RO? I have yet to see that used.

While true, there are grids... but grids are rather large and you have to pull up a map each time. I'm still missing the ability say "Bob, move to this point" and have some visual indication of where I'm referring to. Maybe that rally point feature is like that.

Again it comes down to a feature, or lack there of, that makes it more difficult to communicate.

----

I just played this again tonight with Cing & Clod. I found the same issues to exist with the name tag. Cing was running directly at me and I couldn't tell it was him. I kept having to ask "where are you" while we were trying to move together.

That made the game feel isolated. There was little cohesion with the players.

I still love the way the weapons work though.

**Clodhopper** · 07-30-2006, 04:41 AM

Yeah I don't much like the friendly tag deal they have going, its hard as hell to figure out who your following/whos following you. I turn around many times, checked 3 or 4 times until I seen Cigs name tag as it just didn't want to show up until we were breathing the same air :P That's a tough thing to work out, even with top notch communication as you really don't know who your trying to communicate with until you two are giving one another eskimo kisses.

I also noticed the grids too, large and... well... nearly useless. I don't think we even used them tonight (although I only played with these for for a little under an hour)

The maps we played when I was around (aside from that last city one... which was a bit on the ****ty side) I think were custom maps... the official ones I've played (like that rail yard) had some tight fire-fights in a few locations and with that, some great firefights. Should we get together again, I say we find a server with official maps and see if that feel of isolation buggers off (yeah, I felt it too)

**TychoCelchuuu** · 07-30-2006, 02:49 PM

A time delay on the name tags would still allow you to identify enemies over friends, it would just take another second or so. Making all the gas the same color wouldn't help, because you'd know who is on your team and who isn't by looking at the scoreboard or the kill messages. It's unlikely Tripwire set the name identification distance so low on accident, and then has been unable to change it for the months this game has been out. This is most likely a conscious decision, and it's one I agree with.

**CingularDuality** · 07-30-2006, 02:53 PM

Originally Posted by TychoCelchuuu

It's unlikely Tripwire set the name identification distance so low on accident, and then has been unable to change it for the months this game has been out. This is most likely a conscious decision, and it's one I agree with.

If it's purposeful, that's fine, but it sure does ruin teamwork and communication. I suppose it would be great for a bunch of pubbies that don't really care which teammate is in the same room with them, because they're not planning on talking to that person anyway...

**asch** · 07-30-2006, 03:12 PM

Originally Posted by TychoCelchuuu

A time delay on the name tags would still allow you to identify enemies over friends, it would just take another second or so. Making all the gas the same color wouldn't help, because you'd know who is on your team and who isn't by looking at the scoreboard or the kill messages. It's unlikely Tripwire set the name identification distance so low on accident, and then has been unable to change it for the months this game has been out. This is most likely a conscious decision, and it's one I agree with.

You're right... someone could try to memorize the 20 players on their team or take the time to pull up the scoreboard. That sort of negates the shoot first argument though. So yes, they can now wait for the delay and read the scoreboard and hope that they aren't dead.

Does that argument really make sense?

Or.... someone could just look at the different uniform.

So again... what is the point of not having the nametags more easily identifiable? The run-n-gun argument is out.

**TychoCelchuuu** · 07-30-2006, 09:44 PM

You don't have to memorize a 20 person team. You see the names in the upper right for kill/death notices a lot, and for me at least if you gave me a list of everyone who played at the end of a round, I could place most of them on one team or another.

I understand it's harder to work as a team when the game doesn't tell you everyone's name. That's why you need good communication and coordinated movement. If you just run off without asking anyone and you don't pay attention to where your teammates are going, what they are doing, and why, then obviously you're going to have trouble figuring out who's who. Just because the game isn't doing the coordination for you doesn't mean it's trying to stifle teamwork.

**asch** · 07-31-2006, 12:34 AM

Originally Posted by TychoCelchuuu

Just because the game isn't doing the coordination for you doesn't mean it's trying to stifle teamwork.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Providing names of nearby teammates isn't doing the coordination for me. It's providing realistic teammate recognition. As Cing mentioned.... I should have to say "hey you across the street near the bush".... when I should be able to recognize that as "bob".

So to me, the game is stifling communication and therefore, teamwork.

**TychoCelchuuu** · 07-31-2006, 02:31 PM

Something that makes you talk more with other people is the opposite of stifling communication. If you have to ask who's over there by the bush, you're talking more with your teammates. It's not realistic, but it prevents the unrealistic ability to tell friend from foe by means of floating nametag.

**Strag** · 07-31-2006, 03:48 PM

I haven't seen this discussion repeated for a couple of months now! It brings back memories....

Remember that Tzefanya wrote several mutators to address many of the issues discussed above (including a mutator that displays friendly teammate tags at greater distances, complete with a delay for those players further away), but the game still did not go anywhere at TG. To date, this is the only game I've seen hosted at TG where pubbies have figured out how to play it well, but TGers have not.

Oh, and yes, there is indeed a rally feature that commanders can use. A commander can bring up the map and set a rally point, or, alternatively, he can set a rally point by pointing his binoculars at a location and using alt-fire (right click). This information is available here.

In any case, I hope those of you who haven't played the game very much enjoy yourselves this Wednesday.

**Clodhopper** · 07-31-2006, 04:29 PM

Originally Posted by Strag

In any case, I hope those of you who haven't played the game very much enjoy yourselves this Wednesday.

Ohh man so do I! Get in the game boy-o's!

**asch** · 07-31-2006, 05:35 PM

Originally Posted by TychoCelchuuu

Something that makes you talk more with other people is the opposite of stifling communication. If you have to ask who's over there by the bush, you're talking more with your teammates. It's not realistic, but it prevents the unrealistic ability to tell friend from foe by means of floating nametag.

You don't think that too much talk can be a bad thing? I quite often have to ask people to shut up because the critical intel can't get across the wire. That's what could possibly happen here.

Each method has it's pros and cons. Some may feel it's more realistic one way or the other... and my point is that both offer some semblance of realism. But as you can see, the choice made with this game caused many players not to play it. But the statement that people who don't like it need their hand held or don't want realism is incorrect.

But for the sake of discussion.... let's look at the nametag more closely. You didn't answer my question about how a distance-based, time delayed, single color nametag would negatively impact the gameplay? The reason is to prevent the unrealistic ability to tell friend from foe. From what you said earlier it's to keep the run-n-gun, shoot first mentality away. Well if it's time delayed and single colored and only works up to a certain distance.... yet still provides the information needed to communicate effectively by name.... then that run-n-gun behavior wouldn't exist.

**asch** · 07-31-2006, 05:36 PM

Originally Posted by Strag

Remember that Tzefanya wrote several mutators to address many of the issues discussed above (including a mutator that displays friendly teammate tags at greater distances, complete with a delay for those players further away), but the game still did not go anywhere at TG. To date, this is the only game I've seen hosted at TG where pubbies have figured out how to play it well, but TGers have not.

I thought Tzef did a great job. Unfortunately I think TG had already given up on the game. Hopefully this free week can bring it back around for one more shot.

**Clodhopper** · 07-31-2006, 06:06 PM

Originally Posted by asch

I thought Tzef did a great job. Unfortunately I think TG had already given up on the game. Hopefully this free week can bring it back around for one more shot.

I'm really hoping for it.

I only play CoD2 online with TGers. I HATE the game online otherwise.

Now, I'm loving RO, even on public servers (was the reason for the title of this thread, I take it back, I like some public servers, then I ranted) and I can just imagine how better it would be on TG and I'm fighting with the thought as to why it's so unpopular, but some have brought up some good points to answer that.

But that doesn't change the fact I'd love nothing more than to see TG pick this game back up and really get into it

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