Revark

I will buy it, try it for the free 30 days. This is one of two MMORPG I will be testing out.

Warhammer is the other one. More PvP in this one.

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Battlefield 2: Battlefield 2142: WoW: Oblivion: NWN2

jaymind

Other than the been there, done that aspect to this game I have to warn everyone that I just don't think it's any where ready to be released. To much broken ****, quests suck, etc... Way to many bugs and errors around. They need at least another 6-8 months of refinement before I would consider it ready for release.

Revark

On that note, perhaps I will wait for some more TG reviews when it goes live. It was a "sorta" want anyways.

Warhammer is still on for me though.

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Battlefield 2: Battlefield 2142: WoW: Oblivion: NWN2

Turbinator

thats why I will try open beta first.

Plus these days MMO's offer 10 day trial, I am sure Vanguard will follow this route.

Gambit7

Okay, I got my beta loaded and spent about 1 hour playing a bit. First thing I was aware of was video lag. A LOT of people mistaken this for bad ping but all you gotta do is lower your settings and you'll find it's as smooth as your vid. card will allow.

That being said, my system is HORRIBLY under-specced for this game and yet it's still playable... which is quite refreshing.

On that note, this is one of the most customizable games I've ever seen. The game settings allow you to really take advantage of your rig or really dumb it down for the old-school systems like mine. The char. creation is nearly on par with CoH. It's basically a mini-game in itself. If you could control your clothing and focus more accurately on coloring it'd be EXACTLY like CoH.

Races, classes, etc... a nice array of interesting choices.. although I'd like to see more interesting in-game lore in this aspect. I agree with those that say the quests and lore are lacking. They need to really work on this.

The UI is smooth and simple, basically like WoW. I havent gotten far enough to do anything beyond point and click, but I know the combat system is a bit more complex then WoW's. Overall the UI feels VERY malleable, much like everything else in the game - if your UI sucks... it's basically your own fault. Not the game's.

Moving along, a shuffled through some of the talents, crafting, etc. and I really liked what I think they're trying to do. The crafting looks to be even more involved then SWG's, which is a good thing. Just from thumbing through the crafting UI you get that impression.

I really liked the idea of equipment specialization rather then equipment LVL so to speak. I THINK this gives you the ability to wear high lvl stuff but at a specialization penalty. When you reach 100% you're maxed out basically. I.e. at lvl 1 say you can wear an epic helm... but, you'll basically be naked. This adds an interesting layer of gameplay mechanics and customization where you can not only shuffle outfits amongst eachother but swap one at the EXPENSE of another.

Graphically, the game seems just like EQ2 BUT the characters seem much more rendered and the world is much more vast. Your view is horizon to horizon and warps are near non-existent.

This is all I'm gonna say for now as I'm not real educated on this game yet. In a nutshell though, so far I like it... as it's more of a fantasy SIMULATION then a "game". However, tactically it looks like it MAY be more involved then WoW... making the "gaming" aspect more enjoyable. Between all of what I've seen so far along with the ability to mount immediately, build ships, fly, build houses, castles, etc., and literally craft the game around you... I find it difficult to have a reason not to try this game out at release unless you're afraid of the "Addicting" factor or the learning curve.

For '07 I'm chalking this one up as a must try along with Conan, Gods and Heroes, and Tabula Rasa.

p.s.
This game takes up MORE space then FSX and FSX is the biggest prog. I've seen at 13GB. Vanguard takes up 17GB! And that's before patches, content updates, etc. The days of the 80GB HDD are long gone.

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Turbinator

Sounds good. I loved crafting in SWG. Does the quality of an item depend on the quality of the resource and player skill(ala swg)?

I'll get age of conan at release. Another game I will try for sure is Pirates of the Burning Sea, due June '07.

jaymind

I haven't even touched the crafting yet, to many problems in other areas to move on. This game does remind me of SWG in a lot of little ways, more of a sandbox than anything just like SWG.

The UI - I hated. I just didn't like it at all. So, I downloaded Void UI and everything is nice now. The custom UI's possible to a very nice touch.

Graphics - Mix of nice with crap. Low poly mixed with decent poly. It ain't bad, but runs like **** for no apparent reason. I shouldn't be averaging 19FPS with my rig (which, I will say is perfectly playable).

They've cleaned up most of the LOD and clipping problems but some still exist in buildings, but not to bad now - used to be horrendous.

I think this will be for those that love a deep MMORPG - sandbox, intense crafting, diplomacy, player owned homes/towns, etc (which I all loved - used to be avid into SWG before the ruined it) and doesn't mind grouping for almost all higher level quests (which I hate).

Turbinator

I am fine with grouping, all depends how many ppl you need.
In WoW, 10 for Scholo run and etc was ok, but 40 for MC/BWL I did not like.
I think I spent more time crafting and collecting/buying/selling resources then doing combat in SWG

Gambit7

In re. PotBS: I'm in a contest for the "1st" set of beta testers. MMORPG is running a promo. I used to be involved in the forums and basically told them not to release this POS till it's finished... that was a few years ago. I'm confident that they really thought it through and it'll be a pretty decent game to fool around with as they luckily decided to take their time. Definitely not a "life-stealer" like WoW, Vanguard, etc. though. More of a game you can pop into and out more easily.

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Turbinator

Personally it could be more of a "life stealer" then WoW. I never liked end game rading in WoW, played the original PvP system in WoW, not a big fan of waiting for 20+ min to actually do some pvp.

In PotBS, they'll have avatar combat as well as naval combat(my type of combat). Plus their PvP is not instanced in a way it is in WoW, it has much more seamless feel to it.
PVP is the core of this game, unlike in WoW it was an addition.
Most importantly, even though I'll get AoC at release, PotBS is breath of fresh air, since its mainly Fantasy MMO's currently available, aside from EvE.

jaymind

I'm really looking forward to PotBS - hopefully it turns out like the devs envision. I think it'll be a nice MMORPG for us TG folks.

Turbinator

I will be playing it, question is when . Release date is June '07. Age of Conan release date is March - May(most likely May).

Bisclaveret

I've been in beta since late december. I agree with Gambit7.

I'm currently running a Vulmane (think canine-humanoid hybrid) shaman (it's a healer, with pets and spirit animal totem forms, sorta.) As well as a kalasashar? (kitty!) rogue.

Character creation, I really like. I'm not the best customizer, bug like it has been said, it offers a greater amount of customization. However, there are some anatomy issues at the extremes.

The amount of races is nice, as is are the different classes. The game has been designed so that there are "groups" of specialties: Healers, Offensive Fighters, Defensive Fighters, Offensive Casters, etc. They've balanced it from WoW wherin they are all BASICALLY the same in ability, aside from special abilities and situations. Any healer will heal ~ the same as any other healer (depending on gear) but they each have different ways of doing it, as well as different ways of doing damage that can be useful in different situations. An example is the Blood Mage healer. To do damage, they need to use thier own lifeforce, as well as some of it to heal as well.

Performancewise... it's a big "Meh". My rig is not the best, but I try to make do. running in "performance" mode with a few tweaks leads me 25-30 fps but in populated areas like citys i drop to 15 or less. There is a great amount of hitching whenever NPCs or PC models appear in view, which seems to be virtually gamewide from what most people have posted on the forums. The game tries to be seamless, but varying things happen in the "chunks". Sometimes mobs completely give up. sometimes a new mob is right around the corner that you can't see and BAM you are dead when it's info is loaded. Grouping bugs abound, it's currently unknown if the chunking is the problem.

Stability IS A COMPLETE CRAPSHOOT, both client and server.! Simply put, the servers crash all the time. It's gotten a little better, but it's still very very bad. I would say seemingly about every 20 minutes-hour and a half, the server crashes of the chunk is forcably reset and dumps you to chatacter select. I havent' had a CTD in a long while but they happen occaisionally without warning, or system lockups. This is the single most important issue, possibly teamed with performance, that will break the game.

I haven't tested a lot of the game owing to crashes and whatnot, but I try. Instead of a unified approach, the game allows you to level up in 3 different "spheres" of influence: Adventure (the standard pve/pvp "kill things/quest and gain shizzle" mode) Crafting (yes, you can craft almost exclusively, never hitting one mob) and Diplomacy (i haven't tried this yet).

I've been focussing on crafting. It's much more satisfying to me than in WoW. Basically, you can go with Work Orders which are the bulk of your exp and money gain (making things like nails, sconces, weapons for the community, etc (i'm a blacksmith) or regular crafting recipes. With Work Orders, everything besides tools and "utilities" are provided. The actual act of crafting plays a bit like a minigame. I'l describe a simple work order for me.

I get the work order and verify the difficulty level, the tools needed, etc. If i have them i go to the forge. When you stat crafting, the craft interface comes up. Depending on the difficulty, the game issues a certain amount of "action points" (basically time units) to complete the task. The basic premise is, complete the task in the highest "quality" without running out of time. The crafting involves steps.

First i'd need to put fuel down. i have a choice, one uses a bit more time and consumable fuel material, but increases quality while the other increases the performance to the next stage. There is also a mechanical action that uses a different skill that relies on performance. Eventually, you progress to the Customizing stage where you add special powders,whatnot to the materiala nd beat it, then polishing/finishing.

The problem arises where there are "complications" that reduce efficiency, quality, increase the amonunt of time per task, decreease the effectiveness of actions, etc. They use different skills and other consumable materials to resovlve, and you need to know what you can let slide (they go away after a certain amount of turns) and what needs immediate fixing. These complications were a total crapshoot, but me and a few others were actively debugging them in the forums. They now show in the correct phases, they don't suddenly morph into harder difficulty complications (heat exhaustion to heat stroke in 2 turns while you're actively reducing it?!)

In the end, you've created an object of D-A quality. the higher the quality, the more reward you get from the workorder in terms of a monetary reward, exp, and a loot bag that may contain better crafting equipment, vendor items, special dusts to enhance items (add dex/int/etc stat mods, differing effects, etc) and things like that.

Apparently from the forums, they don't plan on things like herbalists for potions, and other specialty items until official release which makes me . In fact, a lot of things "missing" are slated for "we won't put that in until official release" which doesn't look good to me.

The community.... pardon the french, but OH MY ****ING GOD. Frequent posts in the forums and online by the "hardcore" people from SWG before NGE content and EQ1 telling anyone who isn't immediately thrilled with aspects of the game that "this game just isn't for you then" and "go back to your carebear WoW" noobie. We can't "dumb down" crafting, cause thats being carebear. Not able to solo at-level or below level mobs? (recent patching increaed the damage output and toughness.) get 2-3 guys or give up and go back to wherever you came from, we don't need your type here. The elitism in the crafting forum practically pools on the bottom of my monitor when people suggest boosting loot for work orders or not making it a "grind 300 WO" type of thing, or a "people will see the A grade and only trade up and buy A grade items, everything else will be inferior". Add these kind of things and the ever present when complaining about the heavy problems involved in stability and whatnot, "Its a free beta what more do you want"

Yes. It's a beta. It's a beta that is in it's final phase and it's prospective 2-3 weeks before the game is wrapped up and hits the shelves and sweeps preorders to your house. I've beta tested before, admittedly not for commercial products. I've seen games, mods, and other programs basically completely rewritten from step 1 instead of releasing an inferior or buggy product. Something that's taken this long should not have this kind of trouble, despite the debugging code running in the background, despite the servers being stress tested, yadda yadda. It's come out in a recent thread that basically they are being forced to release it now because they've ran out of development money and need to stay ahead of Age of Conan, LotR Online, Warhammer, etc.

I had extremely high hopes for this game ever since I read the design document on the site like 3-4 years ago. I want to see it succeed. it had an interesting premise, but it's been a bit watered down and changed. I still love it, but by god, it's a challenge.

Just now i've been reading a thread where they are going to shut down the "official" forums and hand it off to "affiliate" websites. So now, instead of a centralized database of information, you're going to need to go to vanguardhealer.com and bardsofvanguard.net and the top guild websites to get your infos on bugs, UI improvements, getting stuck on a quest, etc.
Pardon me while I stick my head out the window. <rrrrrrrgghh>

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Gambit7

LoL... wow, nice post Bisc.

Yah I'm impressed with what they are/were trying to do in Vanguard, of course they ran into pubby issues just like Gods and Heroes is experiencing right now (they are really behind schedule and axed a lot of their staff). Sony, EA... someone really has to just burn their office down or something.. PLEASE? They seem to ruin everything they touch.

Vanguard IMO is better off going the separate hosted forum route and trying to get as independent as possible. Let 3rd party coders and hosters take over like ALL successful games have done and the game should flourish. What true gamer likes to troll corporate forums?? answer is, none do. I'd much prefer a stratics, TG, or warcry like forum. The caveat is, the game MUST have a decent in-game mailing/bbs. W/o it players cant communicate, putting more pressure on outside forums. EVE IMO has the absolute most revolutionary comm. system of any mmo ever, but obviously the fantasy genre is a bit different.

Anyways, both Vanguard and GnH ARE great games... but they're severely hampered by their beneficiaries. Games like Tabula Rasa, Conan, and PotBS have the advantage because they're independent projects. I REALLY liked Gods and Heroes as the defacto game this year (until Huxley releases) for TG, as it's the closest to tru tactical MMO style play I've seen in a fantasy game (sans conan). Each player gets a "squad" to control and combat is much more micromanaged and animated.

CONAN is revolutionary because it has a lot of GnH combat style (including some squad combat) but it's NC17 and completely devoid of care-bear, which is AWESOME (blood, guts, beheadings, etc.). It also has elements similar to LotRO storytelling cutscenes, instanced solo questing. IMO it's the most revolutionary of all the MMOs coming out. It's kind of dumbfounding how they can cram all those features into one game. "real-time" combat? i.e. u directly control what and where u strike. Sieges? Guild cities? player housing? minigames? pvp? pve? instancing? pvp wars? bounty hunting? FORMATION combat? I mean, it's ridiculous. If you're a "warlock" type you actually get cast to HELL if you summon too many demons or "spellweave" too much and you have to fight your way out! How cool is that!?

PotBS I believe will crash and burn unless their avatar system is perfected (they just threw in the avatars after the original forum posters chewed them a new one.. myself included. So it's kind of a "bandaid") and they stick to the original plan of not requiring a monthly subscription, or making it free with a subscription.

TR, well.. this is a big "?" I think it'll end up being left in the dust even though I'm sure it'll be a very "efficient" no-frills MMO.. similar to DDO. Graphically it seems a bit too cartoony also. Unfortunately Devs have yet to grasp that sci-fi doesnt have to look like a cartoon. For sci-fantasy types like myself though, it really is the only thing out there until Star Trek comes out.

Back to Vanguard, there's nothing really "revolutionary" about their game aside from the building engine and their crafting engine. It's just is a PURE MMO, like the way it should be. You live and build the game from within and without. You're given vast amounts of freedom and the perfect environment to "roleplay" if you want. There's so much seemingly to do that you can forget about leveling. Graphically, Conan will be best of the bunch... as it'll be more rugged and lush with even deeper textures then vanguard. Conan also doesnt have to render HUGE vistas like Vanguard, so more will catch your eye in front of you. Granted, if you like open spaces... Vanguard is for you. If you like more sensory overload, Conan is for you. If you like photorealism, then GnH is for you (GnH technically has the best graphics, but I believe the "appeal" is lacking). If you like anime, TR is for you.
As for roleplay, I really see people getting more into Conan toons then Vanguard toons. When I made my Vanguard toon it felt a bit too "mechanical"... It's almost like it's TOO MUCH of a simulation to be real, too "numbers" oriented, too much of a pad and paper feel. I know that's tough to understand but that's the best way I can say it. The benefit is the death penalties, which I have yet to experience. Maybe the fact that's it's a beta is what did it.

Conan toons look to be just as customizable... you can actually customize BONE STRUCTURE. There are 20 sliders just for facial expressions. You can even apply skin texturing along with color yourself. Just awesome.

Anyways, this post is getting long. I'm basically saying I like Vanguard a lot, it's just that I know I'll probably like Conan better. Vanguard, although expertly done and very traditional, kind of made me feel a bit robotic... the learning curve although easily surmountable increases this feel. Conan looks to have this depth but UNDER the surface, not in your face... and seems like you'll get into a convo. about your latest bar-brawl and how you designed the tattoo on your arm, rather then what your ranged damage modifier is. In Vanguard if you poison someone it'll just say-so or some numbers will flick up on the screen. In CONAN, if you're a thief (everyone's a thief at first) you can sneak up to someones drink steathily and literally poison it.. sneak away and watch them die after they drink it... priceless

Vanguard has the one-up because it'll release sooner... so may as well buy it eh? GnH wont be out until the summer at least... dont let their release date fool you. TR and WO not until next winter if they're lucky. Since EA killed EnB I wont be buying WO.

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Bisclaveret

I've read a lot about AoC and it seems right up my alley. The thinga bout carebear is, everyone has a different form of "carebear". To people who grew up playing UO (me) having anything less than a 10 minute corpse run to an empty corpse after you got killed by someone 40 levels above you precasting and jumping behind a bush, so now youve lost every scrap of gold, all equipment, all spell components, and are forced to scrap around on sticks and berries for the next month, (could you imagine being kited in WoW and losing your entire tier 2 set? To someone who then proceeds to laugh and drag-delete or DE it infront of you?) anything less is carebear. (and i'm not kidding. The userbase backlash from ganking and pking was so large that Origin was forced to split the game into 2 realms, a non pk realm and a pk realm, in an expansion. Also, now you know why i loathe unrestricted PK...)

I'm not a stragner to "hardcore" games. My favorite genre is the roguelike, a game that is as ancient as the Curses library on UNIX systems. My favorite is Angband, which has a similar feel in the equipment choices to most mmo's but is even more constrained. And if you die? Your character dies and his savefile (only one) is deleted irrevocably. Roll from start. And now all the titles to the different scrolls are randomized, as are the staves, wands, potions, etc. That scroll of protection is now summon monster, and that potion that used to be cure light wounds is now something that deals 25d25 damage instantly to you.

But i feel in a game like an MMO, there should be some kind of leniency to that kind fo thing. Maybe not as "easy" as wow's simple repair, but a happy balance. It's hard.

And whiel we're talking about MMO betas, i'm in the beta for Lost Colony. It's designed somewhat similar to what planetside is but.. geesh. It's a brand new beta so i'm holding serious criticisms aside (we've only just passed the point a few days ago that the only question the devs were looking for was "can everyone reliably run this program on winXP and can you login to our servers") but at the moment the world looks like a halfway step between Tribes 1 and 2 and we only have one gun to play with. WEll, I would play with, if I could find anyone online... lol.

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