aeroripper

The only thing that matters is what we do with our time on earth. Individuals can come up with their own moral code depending on their life experiences and lessons, rather than religious moral conditioning. It's my own opinion that the vast majority of people would gravitate towards moderate moral dispositions, and there would be far fewer on the fringes murdering, raping, and otherwise causing mayhem.

I think it makes people uneasy that "morals" can be defined and followed subjectively outside of a so called objective truth, providing the base for us to leap from (God). You would probably see different groups of people adopting different moral codes depending on their history and culture.

It would matter if you kill people only if your society takes offense at murder. Essentially the only motivation to keep you from harming others is possible retribution from the established law, unpleasant emotions (assuming you are capable of empathy), and\or conflict with your internal moral code.

sordavie

Those "proofs" involve division by zero.

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CingularDuality

The judeo-xian god has nothing to do with acting moral. Love, compassion and morals existed long before Jesus ever did... There have certainly been cultures that had different ideas on morality. Think human sacrifice. The modern judeo-christian establishment certainly has queer (pun intended) ideas on morality today.

I believe in no god, and I also believe that the most important person in the world to me is me. This doesn't mean that I feel killing babies is less disgusting than you do! The fact is that we have plenty of sickos in our society that do believe in god. It doesn't stop them from killing babies.

So, if I'm not afraid of going to hell, or not going to heaven, why do I act the way I do? Because a stable society that is mostly free from fear is something that makes my life better. Because seeing other people (especially family, friends and others close to me) smile makes me happy. Because I know that The Golden Rule goes a long way towards living a happy life. Because I've learned from others that have lived longer than I have about what works and what doesn't, and that religion rarely has anything to do with it...

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Apophis

How do you divide by zero again?

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Diplomacy is the art of saying "good doggie" while looking for a bigger stick.

ednos

Or adults, for that matter.

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The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. ~ Bertrand Russell
I have a tendency to key out three or four things and then let them battle for supremacy while I key, so there's a lot of backspacing as potential statements are slaughtered and eaten by the victors. ~ Magna Centipede

RandomGuy

The omnipotent Flying Spaghetti Monster (FSM) hates Pascal's wager. He hates it so much that anyone who argues Pascal's wager on an Internet forum will be darned to an eternity in heck.

Sure you might not believe in the FSM, but I suggest you consider your options. If there is no FSM, then it doesn't really matter. But, if there is a FSM it really does. You should play it safe and not ever invoke Pascal's wager on an Internet forum!

sordavie

You can't. It's undefined for standard mathematics, which is why the proofs result in strange conclusions.

There are versions that don't divide by zero too, but they also make some kind of mistake. Here are some if you are interested.

http://mathforum.org/dr.math/faq/faq.false.proof.html

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Requital

Yet, the reality is you do not believe in the FSM. In fact no one does, because the FSM has never made a point to involve itself in the lives of anyone. Nor has the FSM described itself. No one has written books or poetry about the FSM. Crying out convinced the FSM can help them. No one has died for their belief in the FSM, or changed the course of History because the FSM made itself known in a way that can not be explained outside the FSM.

So, if you don't like Pascal's wager that is fine, I had not even realized there was a name for it. Yet, everyone still participates whether they like it or not. Everyone participates in life and the outcome will continue to be death.

God is not an illogical concept. Science is not greater than God simply because it can be explained through observation. Observation is easy. Science does not disprove God. Pure Science does not attempt to. Pure Science is observation without bias. Most people hold science up in a similar fashion to any Religious Dogma (Someone mentioned a forum discussion on it). Disbelief does not make God cease to exist. Belief does not make God real. Either God exists, or He does not purely on His own merit.

I simply think God is a more plausible solution in explaining life and morality than, "because that is what a group of people (society) thinks is right". I am convinced that groups of people (societies) work because God is and has created life and man to work. Life was designed, and not a random act. I don't believe it would work otherwise.

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mentholated

This provides all the answers, pertaining to reality, time, and the omnipotent FSM: http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/dmt/dmt.shtml

BeSiege82

I agree, science is all about observations, but proving that witch is not of the physical by the methods of science is impossible. Even though Holloween is just around the corner, you can't explain the demons (only their actions) and other effects not caused by human hands in instances where people were attact, or for that matter, how the Jewish manuscripts well over 2 thousand years old are still accurate and some how mentioned the names of actual kings centuries before their birth, or yet God - for it is by faith one finds his way whether in the one true God or some other scued view.

I personnaly believe there is a God who made all and gave all the chance to have lasting life. Remember: creatio ex nihilo.

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lTG-Irrl BeSiege82
A former platoon leader...

"Courage grows strong at the wound."
"Virescit Vulnere Virtus."

"{My grump-o-meter starts to make a high-pitched whine when I point it at your post, though.}" -- Axis

Zoopy

I didn't know there were Satanists in Texas.

I like to live by Kantian ethics, that makes the most sense to me.

SmokingTarpan

So God exists only because people write about him, ask him for help, die for their belief in God (not an example I would have chosen, seeing as how say blowing yourself and 100 others up, or invading a country for your belief seems contrary to the professed morals given by God)? In other words, God is only God because people make him so? Seems to be the argument you're professing, and antithetical to the idea that God simply is, regardless of what us peons down here do.

I also find great fault with your belief that the only reason man doesn't go around raping, killing and eating babies (remember to get the order correct) is because of God. The fact is that people DO in fact do bad things, even with the proposed existence of God. Just look at all the failing countries in Africa, or go back in history to the Dark Ages or Crusades. All that stuff aside, take God out of the picture and you will still have law and order (in most places). Why? Because man has a vested interest in a functional society. Greed, really. And I highly doubt that greed is something the proposed altruistic God lauds as moral.

You need other people to make your life easier. People to make things that you can't make on your own, do things you can't or don't want to do, people to give you money (hopefully via work) to get the things that you want. Man is capable, even in the proposed presence of a God, of running around and killing, raping, stealing every one and every thing they can. But if everyone did that, we'd be running around naked trying to do what we could to live to age 20 right now. Society works simply because people want stuff, and realize that they can't do everything on their own. People need other people, so they (at least the non-crazies, which are mostly in the majority thankfully) aren't going to go around doing as they please like savages; not because God, the FSM or Jimmy Henson instilled the concept of democracy, capitalism or whathaveyou into the unconscious psyche of humans.

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"I am the prettiest african-american, vietnamese..cong..person." -SugarNCamo

Kerostasis

So you're not even going to quote the part of his post that specifically contradicts your bizarre assertion here? Fine then, let me do it for you.
No, God does not exist because people do all those things for him. None the less, people do change their lives because of God, while we have yet to see any one who has done any of that for the FSM. This does not cause God to exist, but it is a symptom of the pre-existent fact that the Judeo-Christian God is already far more plausible than the FSM.

Note also that not all instances of "dying for your belief in God" involve suicide bombing (or any other form of killing). Suicide bombing is a fairly recent invention (linked to the easy availability of effective explosives), while martyrdom is as old as religion itself. And historically, there are many more people who have been convinced to follow God by witnessing the conviction of those who are willing to believe even unto death than those who believe after conducting academic debates. This makes those who are willing to die for their beliefs very important indeed.

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Requital

Kerostasis did an excellent job in explaining the point of my statement. Appreciate it Kerostatsis.

I beg to differ. The law says you can kill babies in our country now, they just have to be in the womb. That is what our fully "functional society" has agreed to and most of the world is on board. Yet, being a part of that society I dissagree and yet sadly it still happens. China has laws prohibiting the birth of females. So how many babies were killed during the entire Crusades compared to 1 year of babies aborted in America? Let alone in the world? Look it up, you might be surprised. God told people not to murder, and yet in Germany society dehumanized the Jew and 6 million people were murdered. Is that because society was right? or did they simply not believe in God and moral laws? My point is this, as our own society defames God, and places Man (by extension society) as the moral absolute, what will the laws become? Especially, when as you pointed out Greed is what rules society.

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CingularDuality

Fixed your mistakes, bold in red...

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