ednos

I'm pretty sure the plausibility of the Judeo-Christian God is statistically higher than that of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

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The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. ~ Bertrand Russell
I have a tendency to key out three or four things and then let them battle for supremacy while I key, so there's a lot of backspacing as potential statements are slaughtered and eaten by the victors. ~ Magna Centipede

Requital

CingularDuality it seems you have a difficult time with the word believe. Yet, I am sure you believe in a lot of things. I am not sure you can blanketly say believing is a mistake.

For instance (a simple example would be) if you put a loaded gun to your head and pulled the trigger, you probably would believe it would kill you and for good reason. Have you ever seen someone do that? How do you know it really works? You personally haven't ever experienced it yourself so you can't possibly know it is true.

I have read articles that Guns kill people (when people wield them) and I believe it.

When I read about people who have died for their beliefs, people who are intelligent, write well, and have multiple sources confirming they are credible wittnesses, I have to believe there is something to it. I don't believe purely out of thin air. Just because I had a dream I can fly does not mean i will jump off a cliff and fly. I might stand on a chair and jump off hoping to fly, but I do not believe to the point of dying.

Yet, there were a good number of people who had seen and believed to the point of martyrdom that Christ who he claimed to be. I would imagine you could say they believed strongly. They didn't believe out of thin air. All the evidence pointed to their beliefs being reality. Does that make it true? I believe if I point a gun at my head and pull the trigger it will kill me, not because I have seen it, but because I believe the witnesses were credible.

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Sirusblk

Then you may call me reverend then Muah ha ha ha haaaa

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Kerostasis

I completely reject those "corrections" as being anything more than your own refusal to accept non-atheist viewpoints as reasonable. I'll go with my original wording, thanks much. You may feel free to mentally insert all the "uncertainty" qualifiers you want in our posts, but I'm not going to do that for you, because I am certain.

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CingularDuality

You can be certain in your beliefs all you want, but that doesn't make god's existence any more factual, nor does it make people change their lives for anything other than their beliefs... Hell, even the christian religion believes that: Man has free will. God won't change your life for you, you have to do it yourself. It's the strength of your belief that changes your life. Right?

And, ednos, I'd like to see your statistics that indicate the plausibility of the judeo-xian god is greater than that of the FSM. Hopefully your statistics will also include Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny. I've been telling my kid that the Great Pumpkin is much more plausible than the Tooth Fairy, but he doesn't believe me...

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Kerostasis

And you can be certain in your disbelief all you want, but that doesn't make god's existence any less factual either. As to your second assertion...

Not quite. Thats actually a fairly complicated theological question, but the most common answer seems to be somewhere along the lines of "its a team effort". God won't normally change your life against your will, but at the same time his help is invaluable in completing major changes. When we say that God works change in people, we sometimes do mean that completely literally. In this particular case...
...I was using the term somewhat more holistically to mean "the sum total of a person's relationship with God". That does include belief, but it also includes the literal interpretation as well as several other aspects of faith. Belief alone is not enough. After all, as the book of James reminds us, even the Demons believe in God, but they do not follow him.

Current world population of followers of Christ: about 3 Billion
Current world population of followers of FSM: somewhere between 0 and a few thousand, depending on how you count them.

Historical total of those who gave their lives for Christ: Millions, continuing to this very day in places such as China and the Middle East
Historical total of those who gave their lives for the FSM: Zero. It's never been done.

Granted, these are very rough numbers, but the proportional relationship is pretty clear. Any or all of the numbers could be off by a factor of a hundred and you'd get the same answer: People find Christ believable, and the FSM not believable. If you want to go into WHY this is so, we can do that, but it'll take a lot more space and a lot more theology than I think you want to spend on it.

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Requital

What you did here was take out God and then say see it's just the strength of the belief. You are still under the assumption that God does not exist. You are not even taking into consideration that He might. At that point you won't beable to see the forest for the trees and someone could say "see that tree" and you respond with, "it's a forest", and the person will rephrase, "Yes, but do you see THAT tree" and you continue with "it's a forest". I have thought about God not existing and the consequences of that. I can't explain logically how that is possible or even desirable.

Here is an example. Every year the book that is most printed and purchased in the entire world is the Bible. It is also the only book that has been translated into almost every language on the planet and at this time I think I read something like less than 400 languages/dialects are left to translate. It is the number one best seller of all time every time every year. No other book can compete against it. Even Harry Potter. They don't put it on the best seller list because it doesn't need publicity. If that isn't a statistic that encourages plausibility greater than FSM I am not sure you are able to be reasoned with.

"The familiar observation that the Bible is the best-selling book of all time obscures a more startling fact: the Bible is the best-selling book of the year, every year. Calculating how many Bibles are sold in the United States is a virtually impossible task, but a conservative estimate is that in 2005 Americans purchased some twenty-five million Bibles--twice as many as the most recent Harry Potter book. The amount spent annually on Bibles has been put at more than half a billion dollars." http://www.newyorker.com/archive/200...061218fa_fact1

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Beatnik

Or so fooled by their misperceptions of reality that they end their life in the name of a non-existant "higher power".

Are (Christian) martyrs the ultimate recipients of The Darwin Awards? Are they any less misguided than suicide bombers, who are also self-proclaimed martyrs?

I'm not saying don't believe; everyone's entitled to their superstitions, whether it's wearing the same underwear every game in the playoffs or thinking the ringing bells in church actually transforms wine into the blood of a guy that lived 2000 years ago. Hell, I used to be the guy that rang the bells indicating consecration.

But asserting those beliefs as fact just opens the superstitious up for all sorts of fun making on our part. Enter, FSM.

Indeed. If I raised my kids from birth to believe in FSM, had a special holiday just before new year's where they got presents because it's FSM's birthday, couldn't eat meat on fridays in march because "that's when we fast because FSM loved you", took them to church once (or more) a week, every week, and finally had them have special parties for indulging in the sacraments of the FSM (garlic bread confession, baked ziti confirmation, Lasagna wedding, etc), I'd bet there'd be a lot more FSM believers out there.

Which, of course, doesn't make the FSM any more ****ing real. It's called religious indoctrination.

People aren't born Christian (or Muslim, etc). They're raised that way. Without sufficient, effortful religious indoctrination and socialization, there's significantly less believin goin on.

Not that I'm trying to convince you or anyone else to not believe. Just pointing out how you're wrong.

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SmokingTarpan

I did, in fact, miss that part of his statement when I read through his post, for which I apologize. However, his examples are still off, as they seem to make writing about, dying for, etc. a qualifier for their god, but not others, to exist. As in, "People write poems about God, so I'm sure he exists. People don't write poems about the FSM, therefore he can't exist."

It annoys me because it's a contradiction with most theists (mainly the judeo-x's). The world asks for solid proof that God exists, and the reply is, "God works in mysterious ways, you must simply have faith." Yet when an alternative deity is proposed (even one like the silly FSM), the theists say, "He can't exist, where's the proof?" You're not allowed to immediately disregard the faith and beliefs of others simply because they differ from yours.

I believe the laws rather only define what is and is not a human life- whether or not you agree with the law is your own viewpoint. I rather doubt that it reads, "It's okay to murder babies," or something similar. In fact, our society has agreed that, for the most part, killing is wrong.

The laws will change to reflect what society requires in order to endure. Remember, only a few hundred years ago women in this country with strange lifestyles were accused of witchcraft and put to death by the God-fearing, God-believing populace. Amazingly we don't do that anymore. Why not? Why did priests (those who are God's interpreters, yes?) then preach about cleansing the witches from the earth, but not now? Did God change the rules on man in mid-game, or did we simply figure out it was just plain stupid to kill women who lived alone at the edge of town?

Three people step out in front of a speeding bus. Person A believes strongly that God will save him, Person B believes strongly that the FSM will save him, and Person C believes strongly that the bus will simply disappear before they get run over. All three end up roadkill, so who was right? Or were they all simply nutso? If 3 million people step in front of a bus because they think God will save them, and all end up dead, is that proof of God or insanity? What if they had instead believed in the Purple Elephant Monkey, does that means it is more plausible then God? Because of numbers?

I honestly don't have a problem with belief, faith, whathaveyou. I may not share the beliefs, but I respect people that do. Hell, my own thoughts on how the universe works are likely just as wacky to some as the FSM, and I'd hope that people would respect me regardless. What I do have a problem with is the, "My X exists even though I can't prove it, but your Y can't exist because you can't prove it," approach. It's very hypocritical.

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[squadl]
"I am the prettiest african-american, vietnamese..cong..person." -SugarNCamo

Requital

You are making a mistake when you say "end their life". Their life was taken from them by someone who did not believe them and wanted them to stop to the point of murdering them. Why? Because of their beliefs in a God that loves man enough to sacrifice Himself in the attempt to reconcile their hatered of Himself is detestible. To be punished for espousing love and caring towards those around you, and doing no wrong yourself you are Flogged just shy of death, Scorned (in front of hundreds of people by walking towards a place reserved for murderes and thieves, spat upon by the people you love) and then put up on a Crucifix with nails through your nerves that prevent you from going unconscious. Slowly you suffocate to death with every breath causing excruciating agony. After all that in the last moments of your life you proffess that you forgive those who persecuted you and the people guarding your body believe your sincerity to the point of agreeing with your claim to be God.

Making fun of people who believe in that seems a bit evil and petty to me, but as history shows it happens all the time, even now.

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RandomGuy

It doesn't matter how slim the chances are that the FSM is the real deal. It doesn't matter how you rate those chances against the chances that your God is the real deal. This is because there are an arbitrary number of potential FSMs all ready to darn you to an eternity in heck if you don't believe.

Kerostasis

This line of logic requires the assumption that people only become Christian when they are raised in a Christian home. What about the millions upon millions of people who were not raised as Christians, and converted at some later point in their life? Most commonly, these are the most fervent of all believers, and are far more likely to become martyrs (if/when the situation calls for it) than those who grew up as Christians. What explanation do you use to dismiss their belief?

Changing the subject slightly...

I think you're misinterpreting us slightly. To use logical terms, having worshippers is a Necessary attribute to being the One True God, but not a Sufficient attribute. That is, given potential deities A, B, and C, of which A and B have worshippers and C doesn't, you can be pretty sure that C is not the correct one. More evidence is required to distinguish between A and B.

The FSM is not dismissed so quickly because there is a lack of scientific evidence for his existence. He is dismissed so quickly because, by and large, even those arguing in favor of the FSM don't believe in him. They only hold him up as an example of "that which can neither be proven nor disproven".

It would be more correct though to say that the FSM is an example of "that which can neither be proven nor disproven by science". Science in general turns out to be pretty poor at telling the difference between any sort of supernatural effects. However, if you allow "theology" as an acceptable method of inquiry into truth, then you gain access to a host of new types of evidence which make the FSM look pretty damn implausible by comparison to not just the Judeo-Christian God but to virtually any other potential religion.

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Beatnik

Religious indoctrination. This time, by missionaries, not parents.

Requital: Every time someone calls me evil for words posted in an internet forum, a demon gets his wings.

Just kiddin'. Like I said, believe away. Just don't label your beliefs as reality and we're all good.

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Kerostasis

>.>

Of course, how silly of me to miss that one. When a child grows up all his life being taught to be a follower of Islam, or Buddhism, or whatever, and is told he will be executed if he ever converts, and then he decides to believe the words of that one missionary that came by yesterday in spite of the danger, thats clearly an example of Religious Indoctrination. How could it be anything else?

I have no illusions that you will actually agree with me when I label my beliefs as reality. But I'm gonna do it anyway. Otherwise what would be the point of believing in them?

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Requital

My question to you is, what would be proof? Does it have to be that SmokingTarpan personaly experiences this proof? I am guessing that people who's lives change because of God's interaction isn't proof enough? You have to have something ...bigger? That's going to be tough. God doesn't do magical entertainment. He doesn't do Big very often. Proof exists, you just don't call it that and dismiss it for your own reasons.

I can understand that. It would take a lot of proof for me not to believe in God to the point that I doubt it is even possible anymore. The thing is, God doesn't need you, or me, but God does love us. I am pretty sure God wants you to jump on His bus, but the bus isn't going to wait for you and you may have already lost your chance to hop on. It's your choice, and He has given you that.

When the end is upon you, and you stand before Him to give account, the God of love, mercy, justice, goodness, and faithfulness might say "You have Hated Me, and I do not know you.", or He could say, "Welcome my good and faithful child! Well done!" and embrace you with open arms. I know where my hope is placed.

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