Ok, why do YOU hate the cops... - Page 10

mentholated · 10-30-2007, 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Switch

I just noticed this post

You trivialize the issues you brought up by calling people who post bad experiences 'conspirators'. Are you trying to say that these are nominal gripes thats are not representative of a much larger whole? This is a MAJOR issue for a large segment of the American population that has to deal with poor police practices on a daily basis; the poor, the minority, the young. No one is saying that every officer is bad. What people are saying is that bad officers and bad practices are ubiquitous. In some cases entire departments might appear to be bad (as in the case of Brett Darrow, as linked by grunt in his post on the first page) and in better areas entire departments appear to be stellar. Whats more common is to have a decent department with its bad apples, and however few they may be, they will always leave a stronger and longer taste than good cops that are simply doing their job as they should be done.

Of all the police posting, I think you're taking this thread to heart the most. Its my guess that several other people have had poor experiences that they don't want to bring up simply not to anger you or ruin their reputation in the eyes of the officers on this forum. While posters here may be bringing heat on the police that they encountered, you're responding with veiled aggression towards people for simply having the bad experience and not prostrating themselves to the righteousness of johnny law.

You tried disavowing yourself from any further involvement of the post saying that you got all the information you needed, but you didn't really get any information at that point, it seemed more like you didn't want to hear any more anti-cop sentiment. This thread would really have to develop for quite a bit longer before you could assess several peoples bad experiences and opinions to come to any meaningful conclusions. I mean, if showing respect and not being discourteous is some kind of revelation for you, then we're all in big trouble.

If you'd like, I can post for you some very pleasant experiences I've had. I can also post a few more not so great ones for you to analyze. This whole thread has really made me stop to think about my past experiences closely and I can recall several occasions officers were completely decent, respectful and still doing things I didnt like -- ie giving me a ticket -- but I had no grudge of it.

I have to agree with knob. Magnum, you appear to be taking this whole thread far too personal. If I'm wrong, I apologize. Why are you taking such an "us against them" stance on what we are discussing, even after saying how bad an "us against them" stance is?

Hambergler · 10-31-2007, 12:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CingularDuality

You have no idea how frustrating it is to hear parents tell their kids, "You better watch out, the po-po is here" when I walk in to a McDonalds with some buddies that are in uniform.

It sounds like the parents were using the kids imagination and the authority given to police to try and get their kids to behave. My mom used to tell me that God was watching and would punish me, to try and get me to settle down. She didn't even believe in God. Or Santa wouldn't give me any presents etc...Why is this frustrating?

**CingularDuality** · 10-31-2007, 06:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hambergler

It sounds like the parents were using the kids imagination and the authority given to police to try and get their kids to behave. My mom used to tell me that God was watching and would punish me, to try and get me to settle down. She didn't even believe in God. Or Santa wouldn't give me any presents etc...Why is this frustrating?

It sometimes happens the way you describe, but more often, it's just a hushed comment when the family is sitting down eating. And I hear it about once a week!

It's a bad attitude towards cops being passed down to the next generation. It's discriminatory and anti-social stereotyping that is quite harmful to society. It goes without saying that kids are impressionable. Making comments like these, that are seemingly harmless, really affect the way a child grows up.

**CingularDuality** · 10-31-2007, 06:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Switch

I think I had a pretty good clue. I don't contend incident to arrest. Otherwise, without probably cause you cannot search a vehicle and without suspicion that you can clearly articulate you cannot search an individual. What I've learned is how easy it is to fabricate an excuse for a search or extend something like a terry frisk beyond its intended boundary because of a hunch or an individuals/suspects lack of respect towards an officers authority.

You're right that reasonable suspicion is subjective. Many of our legal standards are. They have to be in order to apply to EVERY situation. But you're wrong about an officer being able to use a hunch or a lack of respect to conduct a legal frisk. The officer either is or is not able to articulate reasonable suspicion. It's either legal or it's not legal.

The problem is that the legality of an officer's search isn't challenged unless certain things happen:

The most likely thing is that a defense attorney gets any evidence seized during an illegal search thrown out. This happens all the time on what people call 'technicalities', and is the reason why all law enforcement officers should be very careful to operate within the confines of the law. If your friend had a note in his pocket that incriminated him as a serial murderer, there's a chance that he could NEVER be convicted for his crimes because some dumbass thought the 4th amendment didn't apply to his crimefighting duties.

The less likely thing to happen is the number of complaints reaches the press, and the local paper does an "expose" on the officer or the department.

Regardless, cops that can't seem to respect people's rights don't last long. They either learn and/or mature, or they find another occupation.

**Pokerface** · 10-31-2007, 08:54 AM

I hate cops because Cing has beaten me at chess. But I'm working through that issue, so it'll all be better soon.

**Atomic Dog** · 10-31-2007, 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CingularDuality

It's a bad attitude towards cops being passed down to the next generation. It's discriminatory and anti-social stereotyping that is quite harmful to society. It goes without saying that kids are impressionable. Making comments like these, that are seemingly harmless, really affect the way a child grows up.

Yeah, that's a valid point and all...but really...cops also have a way of leaving an impression on the youth that is less than favorable on their own. I mean, getting upset with the parents is only addressing the symptom of the problem, not the cause. It's about as effective as getting upset with the media over how they spin the bad things cops do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pokerface

I hate cops because Cing has beaten me at chess. But I'm working through that issue, so it'll all be better soon.

Cing may be the only redemption of law enforcement I have. A cop who plays chess?! And lets me win all the time?!?

Switch · 10-31-2007, 09:14 AM

I seriously doubt that if you're in an area where parents are warning their kids about the police that the civilians are the problem and the police are the victims. Those are the kind of things people tell their children because they know first hand that police have been unfair to them and they want to keep their children out of the ire. Its not a comforting thing for a parent to tell a child not to have any faith in whats supposed to be a protective force. People do this out of necessity as much as out of spite.

I propose we start the cop/civ anti defamation chess league. We shall play each other for rights to criticize one another. When a civilian wins a game, he can bring up a criticism of police, when a cop wins a game, he can bring up a criticism of the public.

I want sori on my team.

*I have to agree with knob. ? knob?

**Iamthefallen** · 10-31-2007, 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Switch

I seriously doubt that if you're in an area where parents are warning their kids about the police that the civilians are the problem and the police are the victims. Those are the kind of things people tell their children because they know first hand that police have been unfair to them and they want to keep their children out of the ire.

Do you think maybe, just maybe, it's in the realm of possibility that you may have an ever so slightly skewed image of police that in some small way may occasionally color your perception of them and your subsequent interpretation of their interaction with the community?

That's a rhetorical question btw, no need to start a discussion that'll completely derail the thread. I'm just saying, that maybe, just maybe, it's as much interpretation as it is observation.

Switch · 10-31-2007, 12:04 PM

Don't use a broad rhetorical question to criticize a precise quote. Is there anything in the text that you quoted that seems unfounded? My perception, however skewed it may be, has absolutely nothing to do with how others behave.

**El_Gringo_Grande** · 10-31-2007, 12:29 PM

There is something that is being missed here.

Many people are afraid of the police.

Somebody pointed out the high incarceration rate in this country. One of the highest in the world. It looks like we really like putting people in jail. (Either that or Americans are just more evil than everybody else.)

This country is one of the few that will execute their "children".

Cing pointed out that many of the citizen/cop interactions are for "victimless crimes". Crimes where the person is just trying to just "do their thing". Drugs, prostitution etc. So the government is enforcing a certain version of morality. A version that many do not subscribe to.

As I mentioned earlier we have the feds always trying to expand their power. They want to be able to spy on anybody. To arrest anybody they believe is dangerous and send them away without hope of being judged by their peers. And the local police do work with the feds.

My mother-in-law and some of her friends are very afraid of the police. She is a Hispanic US citizen that speaks very little English (though she understands it very well). She is afraid of a new law in Oklahoma that she believes will send her away if she doesn't have her papers on her. Not true but if you listen to the local ultra conservative radio talk shows you would think that is the case. And the local radio talk shows also are BIG supporters of the cops. There is relation there that has to be understood. Many who are anti gay, anti immigrant (the person, not the concept), anti everything "liberal" or different are also big supporters of the cops.

None of this is the fault of the police. But the police are the ones that do the dirty work.

And people are afraid of that dirty work.

Here is an article that brings up many of the point/questions I have seen raised in this thread. Here are some of my favorite passages.

Quote:

More than 4 million prisoners or former prisoners are denied a right to vote; in 12 states, that ban is for life.
"That's why racial profiling has become such a priority issue for African-Americans, because it is the gateway to just such a statistic," says Yvonne Scruggs- Leftwich, chief operating officer of the Black Leadership Forum, in Washington. "It means that large numbers in the African-American community are disenfranchised, sometimes permanently."

Quote:

"What we are seeing is a substantial involvement of the public in the criminal-justice system. It raises a lot of questions in the national dialogue on everything from voting and sentencing to priorities related to state's expenditures," says Allen Beck, chief of correction statistics at the Bureau of Justice Statistics, who directed the report.

Quote:

By 2010, the number of American residents in prison or with prison experience is expected to jump to 7.7 million, or 3.4 percent of all adults, according to the new report.

So if you have the opinion that if you get arrested by a cop you are probably doing something illegal you have to ask yourself. Why are so many people doing illigal things?

What Magnum50 opened up is a very, very important topic. That is why I was so disappointed when he walked away from it. I think all the negative remarks on both sides are symptomatic of something else going wrong in our country. The fact that we cannot talk about it without getting offended and walking away I think is the scariest thing of all.

**Iamthefallen** · 10-31-2007, 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Switch

My perception, however skewed it may be, has absolutely nothing to do with how others behave.

No, not how they objectively behave. But your interpretation and Cingular's interpretation of the very same observation I suspect are very different.

Neither one of you is unbiased. You both apply your perception to an observation. You both make an interpretation of what you see to arrive at a conclusion. So if your perception is skewed, the interpretation and conclusion may not be correct either.

Since you have no idea what the people at the table are actually thinking, it's a wild guess at best to extrapolate that police must have treated them unfairly in the past.

**CingularDuality** · 10-31-2007, 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iamthefallen

Since you have no idea what the people at the table are actually thinking, it's a wild guess at best to extrapolate that police must have treated them unfairly in the past.

Well, that's the thing. I've sat down and talked to two of the mothers that said it. One of them told me that she don't talk to no po-po without a warrant. The other one said that she didn't mean to portray the police in a negative manner at all, that it was just something that her parents had always said to her when the police were around, and that she just always said... She surprised me when she said that Dallas PD was great and asked me if I knew anyone that could talk to her nephew that was starting to sell drugs.

So, yes, our perspectives are different, but I think the specific problem that I'm referring to here is a cultural problem. If we want to look at the larger picture, then we could throw in the stuff that Gringo just mentioned. We could also throw in gangsta rap as contributing to the problem. There's lots of little things contributing to the big picture. But with regards to this little saying that I hear all the time? It's an inner-city cultural thing that I wish would go away.

Switch · 10-31-2007, 01:46 PM

You brought up a very valid issue here; her parents instilling the don't trust police mentality. Any minority individual to have lived through or just after the civil rights movement will be very aware of how bad police treated them. This was institutionalized treatment, extremely abusive towards minorities, and completely supported by 'the man'. To assume that ever since the civil rights movement ended things have become equal is naive. As we all know, racism and discrimination is still a potent force in todays world. So, now, for those growing up in an anti police culture where in many instances they still face abusive treatment, their view is warranted and supported, given the history they have lived through. Decades of injustice will take decades more to mend. Moreover, it is the responsibility of the government (fed or local -- police being part of that) to work towards that goal. They must work to convince the anti police culture that their negative views are no longer valid. Its not a reasonable expectation to have people immediately trust previously oppressive/abusive authority figures.

By sitting down and talking to these people when they voiced their objection to your presence, you've taken a very very important step at closing the gap and remediating the relationship. Thats a good thing you've done. Now, if more police do it for a few more decades, things will be A-OK. (That is, of course, dependent on making sure that bad police are prevented from continuing the practices that earned the distrust to begin with.)

And for my 'wild guess' about how police treated them in the past...
I don't see that as some kind of fanciful extrapolation, and I bet cing would agree that it makes perfect sense. Now, whether the incident was their own, or their friends, or their grandparents, is another question.

**CingularDuality** · 10-31-2007, 02:01 PM

The thing is, these comments aren't coming just from minorities. They're coming from all different types of people: rich, poor, black, white... It seems to me to be an urban thing, or maybe even just a Dallas thing?

**El_Gringo_Grande** · 10-31-2007, 02:04 PM

Here is a link to the report discussed in the article I talked about.

But the graph on the first page is amazing.

10-31-2007, 08:54 AM	#140 (permalink)
Pokerface Join Date: May 2003 Location: MD, USA Age: 29 Posts: 5,722	Re: Ok, why do YOU hate the cops... I hate cops because Cing has beaten me at chess. But I'm working through that issue, so it'll all be better soon. __________________ NS Game Officer. TF2 Admin. BF2 Admin / Scripter. PM with issues. Tempus: Pokerface is nailing it right on the head. Everyone who is arguing against him is simply arguing against reality. <anmuzi> it is not permitted to have privacy or anonymity <LazyEye> yeah when I play on TG the server digs though my trash Arm yourself with knowledge: TG NS TF2 BF2

10-31-2007, 09:14 AM	#142 (permalink)
Switch Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: NJ Posts: 1,147	Re: Ok, why do YOU hate the cops... I seriously doubt that if you're in an area where parents are warning their kids about the police that the civilians are the problem and the police are the victims. Those are the kind of things people tell their children because they know first hand that police have been unfair to them and they want to keep their children out of the ire. Its not a comforting thing for a parent to tell a child not to have any faith in whats supposed to be a protective force. People do this out of necessity as much as out of spite. I propose we start the cop/civ anti defamation chess league. We shall play each other for rights to criticize one another. When a civilian wins a game, he can bring up a criticism of police, when a cop wins a game, he can bring up a criticism of the public. I want sori on my team. I have to agree with knob. ? knob? __________________ \|TG\|Switch* Better known as: That noob who crashed the chopper. That noob who ran over the mine. That noob who TK'd me with a sniper rifle. That noob who hit that APC at 300m with light AT! Our APC...

10-31-2007, 12:04 PM	#144 (permalink)
Switch Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: NJ Posts: 1,147	Re: Ok, why do YOU hate the cops... Don't use a broad rhetorical question to criticize a precise quote. Is there anything in the text that you quoted that seems unfounded? My perception, however skewed it may be, has absolutely nothing to do with how others behave. __________________ \|TG\|Switch Better known as: That noob who crashed the chopper. That noob who ran over the mine. That noob who TK'd me with a sniper rifle. That noob who hit that APC at 300m with light AT! Our APC...

10-31-2007, 01:46 PM	#148 (permalink)
Switch Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: NJ Posts: 1,147	Re: Ok, why do YOU hate the cops... You brought up a very valid issue here; her parents instilling the don't trust police mentality. Any minority individual to have lived through or just after the civil rights movement will be very aware of how bad police treated them. This was institutionalized treatment, extremely abusive towards minorities, and completely supported by 'the man'. To assume that ever since the civil rights movement ended things have become equal is naive. As we all know, racism and discrimination is still a potent force in todays world. So, now, for those growing up in an anti police culture where in many instances they still face abusive treatment, their view is warranted and supported, given the history they have lived through. Decades of injustice will take decades more to mend. Moreover, it is the responsibility of the government (fed or local -- police being part of that) to work towards that goal. They must work to convince the anti police culture that their negative views are no longer valid. Its not a reasonable expectation to have people immediately trust previously oppressive/abusive authority figures. By sitting down and talking to these people when they voiced their objection to your presence, you've taken a very very important step at closing the gap and remediating the relationship. Thats a good thing you've done. Now, if more police do it for a few more decades, things will be A-OK. (That is, of course, dependent on making sure that bad police are prevented from continuing the practices that earned the distrust to begin with.) And for my 'wild guess' about how police treated them in the past... I don't see that as some kind of fanciful extrapolation, and I bet cing would agree that it makes perfect sense. Now, whether the incident was their own, or their friends, or their grandparents, is another question. __________________ \|TG\|Switch Better known as: That noob who crashed the chopper. That noob who ran over the mine. That noob who TK'd me with a sniper rifle. That noob who hit that APC at 300m with light AT! Our APC...

10-31-2007, 02:01 PM	#149 (permalink)
CingularDuality Join Date: May 2003 Location: Dallas/Ft. Worth area of Texas, USA Age: 33 Posts: 16,639	Re: Ok, why do YOU hate the cops... The thing is, these comments aren't coming just from minorities. They're coming from all different types of people: rich, poor, black, white... It seems to me to be an urban thing, or maybe even just a Dallas thing? __________________ Become a supporting member! -- Shop at the Tactical Market! Take the world's smallest political quiz! "I was touched by His Noodly Appendage." TacticalGamer TX LAN/BBQ Veteran:

10-31-2007, 02:04 PM	#150 (permalink)
El_Gringo_Grande Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: OKIE HOMY Age: 39 Posts: 2,327	Re: Ok, why do YOU hate the cops... Here is a link to the report discussed in the article I talked about. But the graph on the first page is amazing. __________________ Sen. John McCain (AZ) For President '08 --- I’m not racists, I have republican friends. Radio show host. - "The essence of tyranny is the denial of complexity". -Jacob Burkhardt - "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds" - Emerson - "People should not be afraid of it's government, government should be afraid of it's People." - Line from V for Vendetta - If software were as unreliable as economic theory, there wouldn't be a plane made of anything other than paper that could get off the ground. Jim Fawcette

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