Ok, why do YOU hate the cops... - Page 12

xTYBALTx · 11-01-2007, 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by El_Gringo_Grande

But maybe it isn't that the general public's norms are getting worse. Maybe, just maybe, it is that the law/government is becoming overbearing? Maybe it is overstepping it bounds much more often than it did in the past. And maybe certain segments of the population are reacting to this? Some of us are getting a general negative attitude towards the government and the poor cop is caught in the crossfire?

Gringo, you're starting to sound like a libertarian Reason.com reader!

But at what point do the police become complicit in this? In a decent society, shouldn't we expect our guardians to say "Woah, that's too much, I'm not doing that." At what point does just following orders cease to be a legitimate defense?

Unrelated question: I always thought it was illegal for the military to police the US population. But when cops are using the same gear as the military, and conducting early morning raids complete with military tactics - regularly - then what's the difference?

**TheFeniX** · 11-01-2007, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CingularDuality

Children today have little respect for authority and it's getting worse.

20 years ago, you didn't want to take responsibility for your actions.
Now, some other kids don't want to take responsibility for their actions.

Isn't one of the criteria for being "immature," not taking responsibility for your actions?

This "good old days" argument doesn't hold a lot of weight.

In the 80's you had "metal head" punks with slashed jeans and Metallica T-shirts causing problems.

Cing, you're old now. Hell, I'm 25 and I feel old when I see the 18 year-old punks that I'm forcing to attend college with. These types of idiots have always existed and will continue to bring the ire of adults on them.

I can counter your example with another: a "friend" a mine stole one of my brother's car models from his room when I was about 7 years old. After my brother caught him playing with it in his front yard, the kid's mother STILL claimed that he wouldn't steal and that we had planted it on him.

Bad parents and rotten kids transcend generation gaps. It's just easier to look into the past with rose-colored glasses and say "that kind of crap didn't happen by in my day."

I think the only real difference is that people were just a lot better at covering things up "back in the day." They didn't have child molesters back then, they had "dirty uncles." Two kids beat each other up? "Boys will be boys" rather than assault. Hell, there was a time when educated men didn't think women had the mental fortitude to commit premeditated murder.

I still believe the serious increase we've seen in cases like "spousal abuse" are really just indicative of it being reported more often. My biological grandmother actually spent time in jail for manslaughter for stabbing (and killing) her husband when he decided that just smacking her around wasn't good enough and decided to try and beat her to death. Would she have spent any time in jail in this day and age considering the extended hospital stay she needed afterwards? Doubtful.

There is no real "declining moral attitude" in America. It's just a lot easier for us to notice how messed up people really are now that we are older and more mature. I used to have a much more sterile view of the world when I was younger and just kept my eyes to the ground and kept walking. Now that I actually look around and take notice and think back on all the stuff I've seen even when I was younger: I realize that people in general are just unrepentant pricks.

At least online I have TG to insulate myself from that.

**El_Gringo_Grande** · 11-01-2007, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xTYBALTx

Gringo, you're starting to sound like a libertarian Reason.com reader!

But at what point do the police become complicit in this? In a decent society, shouldn't we expect our guardians to say "Woah, that's too much, I'm not doing that." At what point does just following orders cease to be a legitimate defense?

Unrelated question: I always thought it was illegal for the military to police the US population. But when cops are using the same gear as the military, and conducting early morning raids complete with military tactics - regularly - then what's the difference?

I have libertarian tendencies, to be sure.

But I still think government is very necessary for some social issues.

And I brought up the question about the cops and their support of bad laws. When do they become responsible for their actions? It is a hard question.

Cing and others have already said that possession of marijuana will not get you arrested all the time. None of the drug laws I know say "it is illegal unless the cop really doesn't think it is needed." That is something I can't get to line up logically for me. I know the practical reasoning behind it. But it still comes down to a cop being the judge and jury. For good, I know, still something seems wrong about this.

Then you add the fact that many cops will say that if you are disrespectful the odds of getting a ticket or arrested go up. It ends up being that cops are the people that end up being morality enforcers.

It isn't "you break the law and you will get in trouble".
It is "you be bad and you will get in trouble."

And if you are a morality enforcer then what does that do to the persons outlook on life in general?

I am trying not to criticize here, just commenting on what I have read in these threads. I would do the same thing. I think that is a human reaction to what is an imperfect system. Laws are not what we live for. They are simply an attempt to create a stable society. And laws can't fairly cover every situation. I think everybody knows that.

So I think, and correct me if I am wrong, that most cops know that they have a significant say in how laws are interpreted and enforced. For example there have been some police chiefs in Oklahoma that have come onto the local news and stated flatly that they are not going to enforce the new laws put into effect to curb illegal immigration. They did this on TV! Think about this. It is amazing, really. (And from my perspective the "Right" thing to do. And these new laws are probably illegal any way.) This is a law passed by the State and the cops are publicly and actively refusing to enforce it as written.

In some respects and situations that cops have MORE power than the government and the people. And this power is possessed by a group that is not, for the most part, chosen by the people. Nor can the people get rid of the ones they don't like every few years.

So maybe cops are always at least a little responsible for it all?

**El_Gringo_Grande** · 11-01-2007, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CingularDuality

I've got one small example that will serve as an incredible demonstration of how society has changed and why the police are interacting with the public differently now than they did 20 years ago, if you grew up in a neighborhood even remotely similar to mine:

When I was growing up, I was told to go outside and play. I had to be back inside before the streetlights turned on (10ish years old). No matter where I went in the neighborhood, I knew that there wasn't much trouble I could get away with without being seen by someone else that would either march me back to my house, or at least call my parents and give them hell about what their spawn had done. I remember the day that I was climbing in a neighbor's tree and swinging on the branches and I broke a rather large branch off. I started to get on my bike and ride away, but the owner of the house heard the branch break, came out and asked us where we lived. We all lied, so the dude decides to follow us as we ride away on our bikes. We decided to all split up and go different directions. Dude follows me. I rode around the neighborhood for probably a half hour, turning around and giving the guy dirty looks and stopping at random houses and pretending like they were mine, but he just kept following me until I gave up and went home. When I actually went inside my house, he got out and knocked on the door soon after. He politely told my parents, he didn't ask for anything other than an appropriate punishment and that my parents try to contact the other parents of the kids involved, then he left. I think we TP'd his house that halloween. Anyway, I was grounded, as were a couple of my friends, and we were once again reminded of the power of the neighborhood and the authority of adults, even if they are total strangers.

In the neighborhood I live in now, I don't know any of my neighbors. I caught the teenagers from across the street standing on my car the other day. I came out my front door and yelled, "Hey, what the hell are you doing on my car? Get off!" I was barely done yelling "get off" when their mother started yelling at me to not yell at her girls that way and that if I ever did it again, that she'd call the cops. Regardless of the mother's presence and comments, if those girls had confronted me and said something like, "Oh, yeah? What are you going to do about it?", what would I have done? I'd have to call the police. And I'd have to do it before they did if I wanted to ensure I didn't become the suspect. I couldn't grab them by the arm and drag them to their parents without being arrested. I couldn't even go tell the parents because most of the time it seems that parents operate in defensive mode now: "My angel would NEVER do anything like that. Why are you harassing my baby like this?" It's ridiculous. Children today have little respect for authority and it's getting worse.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JMJ

best.example.ever. period.

You are exactly right, similar stuff happened with me as a kid. A neighbor wouldn't hesitate to put his hands on one of us and drag us home when we screwed up, and mine and my friends' parents would thank them for bringing us home, then proceed to beat our asses for screwing up. Good times, good times...that's how you take care of your kids. Nowadays they run wild with no restrictions, it's just like Cing said. There is no more confrontation with anyone, it's "call the cops". It's funny, all my neighbors called the dog officer or the cops about my horrible neighbors, but I was the only one to confront them.

Glad to see I wasn't the only "streetlight" kid either, brings back some fond memories of my early years

I really want to agree with you guys on this one. I am starting to get grouchy in my old age.

But last night I went trick-or-treating with my three year old. Every group of kids I came across where nice and went out of their way to let my little boy up front so he wouldn't get squished. Many called me "sir".

I live in a nicer neighborhood pretty close to lower income housing and apartments so there where many groups of those kids as well. And I saw no difference in attitude or behavior.

Now I grew up one of those poor kids and me and my brothers where "problem" children. He would be the one shooting out the windows in the football press box or destroying all the gas meters in the neighborhood. And birds of a feather do stick together. So many of my families acquaintances where made up of these types of people. (You know, the white trash.) I am just a bit older than you and I do remember my mis-deeds getting home before I did. But I also remember my mother and her friends yelling at those "telling" on us. And I remember them crying after the confrontation because they didn't know what to do and I remember getting a good beating shortly after that.

And a time or two the cops where called. They didn't do much except calm the situation down. But they can't do much. They can't make kids behave. And if the parents can't, or won't, make them behave well… I don't know. But we all turned out OK. I think.

But both of these things are examples of what I tried to say earlier. Cops are taking on too much responsibility. Even if it is well intentioned it ends up being bad.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vodkatonic

I've been in law enforcement for 12 years. I'll be the first to admit that I've become more cynical of people.

When you deal with the same element of people day in and day out, you hear the same stories, "The dope is not mine, I'm just giving him a ride." "I just bought this car I had no idea the gun was there." yada yada yada, blah, blah, blah.

I really don't care what people think of me or what I do, all I care about is going home after ever shift and backing up my partners. If I catch you slippin' you are going to jail, if you give me an attitude when I pull you over, 9 times out of 10 you are gonna get a ticket.

Crime is revolving door, I see the same people over and over again, they take a plea and get out in a week. Uggh.....it's frustrating.

I'm rambling, I have so many thoughts in my head if I were to type them all this would be six pages.......

Maybe you are just getting burned out? You can burn out in any job but jobs like police and EMT seem to be easier to get fed up with.

I have often thought that those types of jobs should be more like what you see in the military. Where the majority of the people are young and in and out after a few years. Those that enjoy it and can do it without becoming cynical stay in. Everybody else goes on to do something else. Would help with the whole "you don't know what it is like" thing as well.

I again will again bring up my desire to see mandatory public service for everybody, no exceptions. Choose the military, peace corps, something like the AmeriCorps or fire/police duty. Give these new "cops" 1 year training and then stick them on the streets for a year. Walking around interacting with the people. Sure be tough going at first but long term would solve some problems I think.

**Grunt 70** · 11-01-2007, 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by El_Gringo_Grande

Cing and others have already said that possession of marijuana will not get you arrested all the time. None of the drug laws I know say "it is illegal unless the cop really doesn't think it is needed." That is something I can't get to line up logically for me. I know the practical reasoning behind it. But it still comes down to a cop being the judge and jury. For good, I know, still something seems wrong about this.

This came up for me before in another police related thread here in the Sandbox. We were discussing how traffic tickets will get dismissed if the issuing officer doesn't show for court. I was struck by how arbitrary it all was and argued that fair application of the traffic laws should divorce the officer from making any kind of arbitrary choice. It really came down to a discussion of how LEO's use their power of discretion to cut, or not cut people a break when they are caught during a moving violation. It's a complex issue and many of the LEO's that responded made perfect sense in their remarks justifying this as the status quo. Lots more people would get lots more BS tickets by taking away an officers discretion on ticketing and such matters.

Good discussion

**Grunt 70** · 11-01-2007, 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by El_Gringo_Grande

Cing and others have already said that possession of marijuana will not get you arrested all the time. None of the drug laws I know say "it is illegal unless the cop really doesn't think it is needed." That is something I can't get to line up logically for me. I know the practical reasoning behind it. But it still comes down to a cop being the judge and jury. For good, I know, still something seems wrong about this.

This came up for me before in another police related thread here in the Sandbox. We were discussing how traffic tickets will get dismissed if the issuing officer doesn't show for court. I was struck by how arbitrary it all was and argued that fair application of the traffic laws should divorce the officer from making any kind of arbitrary choice. It really came down to a discussion of how LEO's use their power of discretion to cut, or not cut people a break when they are caught during a moving violation. It's a complex issue and many of the LEO's that responded made perfect sense in their remarks justifying this as the status quo. Lots more people would get lots more BS tickets by taking away an officers discretion on ticketing and such matters.

Good discussion

**.tritone.** · 11-01-2007, 04:51 PM

Because their fat and lazy and all they do is pick on the little man! God I hate it when there out they're giving traffic tickets and stuff. Why cant we just do away with the stupid police all together? Im like srsly tired of them walking around with guns and stuff. If they have guns then the bad guys will need to get guns to and pretty soon itll become the wild west again. You don't want that, do you lol?

If you agree then you are definitely very smarter than most people! I had a friend who went to jail for a while because of driving drunk and it was so stupid because he didn't get into an accident!!! I'M SO SICK OF THEM! Their nanny state is really getting on my nervous.

The next time i see cops talking on cell phone while driving im going to spit at them and you dont even understand if you dont like what im saying youre just a big dumb REPUBLICAN lol.

**sordavie** · 11-01-2007, 05:00 PM

"very smarter" hahaa

Santa · 11-01-2007, 05:04 PM

Ive never seen someone misuse "there", "their", and "they're" in one paragraph.

**.tritone.** · 11-01-2007, 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Santa

Ive never seen someone misuse "there", "their", and "they're" in one paragraph.

Good catch, captain. For the record, not only can I write complete sentences I can use big words, too. Like sesquipedalian.

I can be sesquipedalian. You're a necropedopodophilophobiac. Bet you didn't know that.

In conclusion : I like rocks and this was all relevant and helped progress the discussion on the role of law enforcement in an increasingly juvenile and hopeless society. You're welcome. This has been a production of Hamhanded Satire, Inc. All opinions expressed therein may or may not be completely bogus and/or annoying and might cause you to require a full frontal and backtal lobotamy. That is all.

// in hindsight I should've said no to the extra shot of espresso they comped me for their crappy service.

**CingularDuality** · 11-01-2007, 10:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by El_Gringo_Grande

Maybe you are just getting burned out? You can burn out in any job but jobs like police and EMT seem to be easier to get fed up with.

I have often thought that those types of jobs should be more like what you see in the military. Where the majority of the people are young and in and out after a few years. Those that enjoy it and can do it without becoming cynical stay in. Everybody else goes on to do something else. Would help with the whole "you don't know what it is like" thing as well.

I again will again bring up my desire to see mandatory public service for everybody, no exceptions. Choose the military, peace corps, something like the AmeriCorps or fire/police duty. Give these new "cops" 1 year training and then stick them on the streets for a year. Walking around interacting with the people. Sure be tough going at first but long term would solve some problems I think.

OK, if you think having inexperienced EMTs due to a high turnover would be a good thing, I'll definitely have to disagree.

And on the first page of this thread, did you miss the part where the cop tells you that most of the jerks you guys are complaining about are the rookies that just aren't mature or haven't learned how to handle the job yet?

I don't think it would be a good idea for either of these jobs to have a high turnover rate.

Pickle · 11-03-2007, 01:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xTYBALTx

Unrelated question: I always thought it was illegal for the military to police the US population. But when cops are using the same gear as the military, and conducting early morning raids complete with military tactics - regularly - then what's the difference?

The difference is in the authority. Are you saying that police should not have adequate (or even the best) gear and tactics?

Quote:

Originally Posted by El_Gringo_Grande

None of the drug laws I know say "it is illegal unless the cop really doesn't think it is needed." That is something I can't get to line up logically for me. I know the practical reasoning behind it. But it still comes down to a cop being the judge and jury. For good, I know, still something seems wrong about this.

In California that is Penal Code 4

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grunt 70

This came up for me before in another police related thread here in the Sandbox. We were discussing how traffic tickets will get dismissed if the issuing officer doesn't show for court. I was struck by how arbitrary it all was and argued that fair application of the traffic laws should divorce the officer from making any kind of arbitrary choice. It really came down to a discussion of how LEO's use their power of discretion to cut, or not cut people a break when they are caught during a moving violation. It's a complex issue and many of the LEO's that responded made perfect sense in their remarks justifying this as the status quo. Lots more people would get lots more BS tickets by taking away an officers discretion on ticketing and such matters.

Good discussion

Today there was no discretion when the wife accused her husband of being abusive. She got an emergency protective order, he couldn't be near the house for five days and he got a free ride to jail. We had no choice in the matter.

Saw a young man drinking a beer in public in an area where children and families congregate. Technically against the law. He was a respectful Marine, took the very mild butt chewing in stride and was given a break.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CingularDuality

And on the first page of this thread, did you miss the part where the cop tells you that most of the jerks you guys are complaining about are the rookies that just aren't mature or haven't learned how to handle the job yet?

I don't think it would be a good idea for either of these jobs to have a high turnover rate.

When I graduated from the academy I KNEW for a fact that I could kill anything in sight, was the baddest MF'er in town and had to prove it every day. Ahhhh...the stupidity of youth and inexperience. CD has a great post here about new guys. Anytime someone starts a new job, any job, they have to prove to everyone else they can do the job. There is indeed a learning curve in not only learning how to do a new but also in HOW to do a job. Surprisingly enough, the movie Colors was very accurate in this respect.

Switch · 11-03-2007, 03:58 AM

Here's a an example of police earning their negative reputation. It doesn't involve a fresh face or someone about to retire. It involves a large number of officers in the field, and then other officers refusing to investigate after official complaints were filed.

http://www.aclu.org/police/gen/32186prs20070613.html
http://www.laaclu.org/PDF_documents/..._Complaint.pdf

If you have any insight on this from a police perspective that will explain it, i'd like to hear it. Right now I'm looking at it through my anti-police state rose colored glasses and it doesn't look defensible. A single incident like this is enough to strip an entire police force of its credibility. Would you concur?

**CingularDuality** · 11-03-2007, 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Switch

Here's a an example of police earning their negative reputation. It doesn't involve a fresh face or someone about to retire. It involves a large number of officers in the field, and then other officers refusing to investigate after official complaints were filed.

I didn't read past the first paragraph of that ACLU crap, but NOPD doesn't exactly have a good reputation in the LE community.

The problem is that corruption that is cultural is difficult to correct. Every single person that you recruit might be as ethical as can be, but if the culture within the city encourages corruption, well, it's just a matter of time...

I don't know what the solution is. Do you? Let time take its course and slowly replace the bad folks with good folks and hope for the best? Flood the place with federal prosecutors, agents and judges for a couple of years?

Edit: This isn't helping, either:

Quote:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/31/us...us&oref=slogin

New Orleans Prosecutor Quits Amid Lawsuit Woes
By ADAM NOSSITER
Published: October 31, 2007

NEW ORLEANS, Oct. 30 — Eddie Jordan, this city’s much-criticized district attorney, resigned on Tuesday, pressed by a $3.7 million race discrimination judgment against him that threatened to shut down his office.

With the city’s shaky criminal justice system made even more so by Hurricane Katrina, Mr. Jordan has been the target of citizen censure for months over dismal results in a city with the nation’s highest murder rate.

The district attorney’s office had appeared to have ground to a virtual halt after the storm, with the dismissal of high-profile murder cases, the failure of a series of prosecutions and the loss of many young prosecutors. Calls for Mr. Jordan’s resignation have been repeatedly heard at City Council meetings and at a big anticrime march this year, where protesters held up placards urging that he step down.

But the more immediate cause of his resignation was the effect of a crushing court verdict delivered in the spring of 2005, when a federal jury found that Mr. Jordan, this city’s first black district attorney and a Democrat, had discriminated against 43 white employees when he summarily fired them soon after taking office in 2003.

The jury decided Mr. Jordan had fired the employees — the majority of the investigative staff, among others — for racial reasons, and they were awarded $2.5 million in back pay and damages, a figure that has now grown to $3.7 million, with interest and lawyers’ fees. All of those fired were longtime employees, and the effect on the office was described as catastrophic by some former prosecutors. The fired employees were replaced by investigators with little or no experience, who were black.

Mr. Jordan was unable to pay the verdict, his appeals were repeatedly turned down, the city refused to bail him out, and a judge recently ruled that the fired employees could begin seizing assets of the district attorney’s office to satisfy the judgment............

11-01-2007, 04:51 PM	#172 (permalink)
.tritone. Join Date: Aug 2007 Age: 22 Posts: 574	Re: Ok, why do YOU hate the cops... Because their fat and lazy and all they do is pick on the little man! God I hate it when there out they're giving traffic tickets and stuff. Why cant we just do away with the stupid police all together? Im like srsly tired of them walking around with guns and stuff. If they have guns then the bad guys will need to get guns to and pretty soon itll become the wild west again. You don't want that, do you lol? If you agree then you are definitely very smarter than most people! I had a friend who went to jail for a while because of driving drunk and it was so stupid because he didn't get into an accident!!! I'M SO SICK OF THEM! Their nanny state is really getting on my nervous. The next time i see cops talking on cell phone while driving im going to spit at them and you dont even understand if you dont like what im saying youre just a big dumb REPUBLICAN lol. __________________ Perhaps you should read the SOPs

11-01-2007, 05:00 PM	#173 (permalink)
sordavie Join Date: Nov 2005 Age: 27 Posts: 2,071	Re: Ok, why do YOU hate the cops... "very smarter" hahaa __________________

11-01-2007, 05:04 PM	#174 (permalink)
Santa Registered User Join Date: Jul 2005 Age: 19 Posts: 3,355	Re: Ok, why do YOU hate the cops... Ive never seen someone misuse "there", "their", and "they're" in one paragraph.

11-03-2007, 03:58 AM	#178 (permalink)
Switch Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: NJ Posts: 1,160	Re: Ok, why do YOU hate the cops... Here's a an example of police earning their negative reputation. It doesn't involve a fresh face or someone about to retire. It involves a large number of officers in the field, and then other officers refusing to investigate after official complaints were filed. http://www.aclu.org/police/gen/32186prs20070613.html http://www.laaclu.org/PDF_documents/..._Complaint.pdf If you have any insight on this from a police perspective that will explain it, i'd like to hear it. Right now I'm looking at it through my anti-police state rose colored glasses and it doesn't look defensible. A single incident like this is enough to strip an entire police force of its credibility. Would you concur? __________________ \|TG\|Switch Better known as: That noob who crashed the chopper. That noob who ran over the mine. That noob who TK'd me with a sniper rifle. That noob who hit that APC at 300m with light AT! Our APC...

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