Ok, why do YOU hate the cops... - Page 7

**marstein** · 10-28-2007, 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ferris Bueller

Any way you slice it, he made a noticeable movement... His movement gives the officer reasonable suspicion ...

Police guys in the audience - is this true? That would make any person moving a reasonable suspect, wouldn't it?

Pickle · 10-28-2007, 06:03 PM

If I saw someone moving to the point I thought they were reaching under the seat...yes.

**Ferris Bueller** · 10-28-2007, 08:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by marstein

Police guys in the audience - is this true? That would make any person moving a reasonable suspect, wouldn't it?

If they make movements that the officer feels is an indication of hiding something or moving it to be obscured from plain view, I'd believe so.

**CingularDuality** · 10-28-2007, 09:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Switch

The PASSENGER was not stopped in the commission of a crime! He's a PASSENGER

I've already said that doesn't matter. You, the driver, and he, the passenger, have both been legally stopped for a violation of law. There's no arguing this.

Quote:

So you're saying that he had reasonable suspicion to search my passengers shoes for weapons?
He also didn't bother to search me for a weapon, but suspected my passenger for some reason?

I have no idea why exactly he searched your friend, but for it to be legal, it would have to be because the officer had reasonable suspicion that your friend had a weapon that put the officer or others in danger.

Quote:

I have no doubt that his search was completely unwarranted and likely illegal. He was probably searching for drugs. You don't empty someones pockets for a gun. Yes, he went through pockets, I forget to mention. The illegality of his search shows when he declined to peruse the issue of my swerving immediately, not bringing up again after I mentioned the debris in the road.

No, him not bringing up the initial reason for the stop has absolutely NOTHING to do with whether or not the search is legal. Emptying pockets and taking off shoes certainly does. That's beyond the scope of a Terry frisk unless he can articulate some reason to believe there's a weapon located there.

Quote:

His search was not pertinent to securing his safety. He had no suspicion that we were going to commit a crime. There was no reason to suspect we were armed.

You had already committed the crime, as you said. I'm not sure how you know whether or not he had reason to suspect your passenger was armed, but if he had no reason, then it was an illegal search. Keep in mind that there might be reasons to suspect your passenger that you don't even know about. You wouldn't know if there was someone matching his description that had brandished a weapon just a couple of hours ago, two blocks away, but that would give the officer the suspicion needed to frisk him.

Quote:

Originally Posted by marstein

Police guys in the audience - is this true? That would make any person moving a reasonable suspect, wouldn't it?

No, they must be furtive movements. Normal movements like looking around at the pretty lights can't be articulated as reasonable suspicion. Shoulders moving around and hunching up like someone is twisting around hiding something in their waistband, or under the seat, or between the seat and the console, or whatever, would be easily articulable as a furtive movement and would be justification for a Terry frisk. If the passenger is recognized as someone previously arrested for having an illegal or concealed weapon, then that person will always arouse suspicion.

Look, the officer has to be able to articulate the facts that he knew at the time that would make a reasonable person suspicious. The word 'reasonable' is important there.

Pickle · 10-29-2007, 01:05 AM

CD, Outstanding post.

Switch · 10-29-2007, 01:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CingularDuality

I've already said that doesn't matter. You, the driver, and he, the passenger, have both been legally stopped for a violation of law. There's no arguing this.

The passenger was not pulled over for a potential moving violation, I was. What you're saying is analogous to searching the occupants of a bus if its pulled over for what the driver has done.

Quote:

No, him not bringing up the initial reason for the stop has absolutely NOTHING to do with whether or not the search is legal. Emptying pockets and taking off shoes certainly does. That's beyond the scope of a Terry frisk unless he can articulate some reason to believe there's a weapon located there.

A key factor of the Terry frisk case you cited was the police officer witnessing suspicious activity that he suspected to be part of an imminent crime. I don't see how theres any reasonable suspicion of a passenger of a vehicle. If for some strange reason he decided that my car was to be towed and I was to be arrested (say expired license old registration no insurance) he still has no cause to search the passenger.

Quote:

You had already committed the crime, as you said. I'm not sure how you know whether or not he had reason to suspect your passenger was armed, but if he had no reason, then it was an illegal search. Keep in mind that there might be reasons to suspect your passenger that you don't even know about. You wouldn't know if there was someone matching his description that had brandished a weapon just a couple of hours ago, two blocks away, but that would give the officer the suspicion needed to frisk him.

You are being to liberal with the word crime. A moving violation is not the same as casing a joint for a robbery. Moreover, I did not commit a crime. And I did not say that I did. I avoided debris in the road. The officer did not debate the fact when I mentioned it. He implicitly admitted that I did not commit a crime when he did not mention it again and did not write me a ticket for failing to maintain lane, careless, etc.

Anyway, in a thread thats focused on pointing out bad experiences with police, its like pulling teeth to get someone who has police experience to concede that these officers were behaving inappropriately/illegally/ or at the very least questionably.

**Ferris Bueller** · 10-29-2007, 02:02 AM

Switch, I belive CD did concede that they were acting questionably. You even quoted both passages where he said so.

Also, theres no parallel between your position and a bus being pulled over. The officer had motive to search your passenger. Whether or not those motives were made clear to you is not of consequence. My question is this: did you bother to ask? It is permissible to ask why things are going on the way they are. Also, when you are pulled over with a passenger, the officer can generally see what is going on inside your car. As I said earlier, maybe your friend made a movement that you would deem innocuous. If the officer felt differently and thought the move was made to attempt to hide something on his person, he is well within his rights to frisk him.

And if a bus gets pulled over and the officer sees people on the bus making suspicious movements in his regard, he has the right to frisk them as well.

Lastly, there is no shortage of police officers anywhere. If you approach one and politely initiate a conversation asking under what circumstances a frisk of a passenger in a vehicle is warranted, I very seriously doubt youd have a problem getting an answer, and Im pretty certain that its the same answer you've been given here. Whether or not that happens to be an answer you like and agree with is irrelevant in the eyes of the law.

**CingularDuality** · 10-29-2007, 03:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Switch

The passenger was not pulled over for a potential moving violation, I was. What you're saying is analogous to searching the occupants of a bus if its pulled over for what the driver has done.

Yes, if the officer legally stops a bus, she then gets to frisk everyone that she suspects may have a weapon. It's for the officer's safety, and, once again, the whole "reasonable suspicion" thing comes in to play...

Quote:

A key factor of the Terry frisk case you cited was the police officer witnessing suspicious activity that he suspected to be part of an imminent crime. I don't see how theres any reasonable suspicion of a passenger of a vehicle. If for some strange reason he decided that my car was to be towed and I was to be arrested (say expired license old registration no insurance) he still has no cause to search the passenger.

Suspicion that a crime has been or is about to be committed is the reason for the legal stop. Suspicion of weapons is the reason for the search. I could've sworn I went over this already.

Quote:

You are being to liberal with the word crime. A moving violation is not the same as casing a joint for a robbery. Moreover, I did not commit a crime. And I did not say that I did. I avoided debris in the road. The officer did not debate the fact when I mentioned it. He implicitly admitted that I did not commit a crime when he did not mention it again and did not write me a ticket for failing to maintain lane, careless, etc.

Are you saying that you think it's illegal for a cop to stop you when he sees you swerving in the road? That's a crime, man! The fact that he let's you go after he sees some debris in the road means he's a decent human being, but it doesn't change the legality of the stop. I'm not being liberal with the word, I'm trying to explain legal concepts to you. If the word "crime" has too much of a stigma attached to it, use "violation of law" instead! Jeesh...

Quote:

Anyway, in a thread thats focused on pointing out bad experiences with police, its like pulling teeth to get someone who has police experience to concede that these officers were behaving inappropriately/illegally/ or at the very least questionably.

Dude. I'm telling you what's legal and what's not legal. I'd love to see you use this information to stand up for your rights. I'd also like you to use this information to ensure you don't try to stand up when you have no legal ground to do so. I'm afraid that you don't seem interested in learning, though...

warcriminal2 · 10-29-2007, 05:01 AM

I definitely don’t hate cops, in fact I probably would have liked to become one. Unfortunately for me though when I was 18 (im 32 now) I got myself busted and received a felony over $30 worth of pot because someone I knew asked me to sell his "friend" some of my personal dope. Turned out, this "friend" was a female undercover cop that had actually enrolled in my High School and was UC for like3 months. The entire thing was a TOTAL joke. 3 months of undercover work and for what? To bust 24 teenagers for minor amounts of pot? No meth, no crack or other hard drugs…they found pot at a northern California High School. SURPRISE!!! Not exactly what I call "taking hard core criminals" off the street but if all you knew about my arrest was what the local news channel said in their 2 day coverage...that’s right, the story made Bay Area TV news 2 nights in a row when we all got arrested...and that was the same day OJ had his slow speed chase down in LA. Think about that one for a minute....OJ....followed by us? WTF??? I totally laugh about it now but when the media crew showed up at our arraignment the next day and the Sheriff brought the four of us that were 18 into the courtroom separate from all the other arrestees just so the news crews could get some good footage of us going to court in our orange jump suits I wasn’t laughing then. The media made us out to be "high school pot kingpins" or some crap like that….we were friggin crucified!

I don’t "hate" anyone, especially cops but I do think its absolutely ridiculous how cops practically prey on citizens by stopping them for lame reasons like a window tint or broken plate bulb and end up throwing them in prison for small amounts of drugs...I’ve heard of people getting YEARS for possession here in Nevada. I’m not saying that crap isn’t dangerous or that there shouldn’t be consequences for possessing drugs but Prison? In 1994 I got 3 months house arrest for my lil pot experience which I thought was fair but I dont know how cops can rationalize locking people up for years when all they did wrong was get pulled over and have some **** in the car. Maybe its good I could never be a cop because id probably have to let too many people go so I wouldn’t have to lock em up and throw away the key. Now if they have drugs and a loaded 9mm under the seat…that’s a different story but possession of any drug shouldn’t be a felony.

Switch · 10-29-2007, 05:53 AM

Hijackery -- start up a new thread, Drugs in the USA. There's plenty to talk about.

warcriminal2 · 10-29-2007, 06:10 AM

good idea dude, this should be good

**Magnum50** · 10-29-2007, 08:57 AM

Switch... your not reading replies, well you are but just what you want.

I said, if what you say is true and your story is NOT missing other important elements, then the cop was wrong. But I also said and believe we are not getting the whole story from you.

You keep posting the same argument, we answer, it's not what you like so you post again.

As I said before, not truly knowing you or these incidents, but only knowing you from your post in this thread and other cop related threads, it is my belief that it's YOU with the problem, not all of us cops.

you are either a smart ass trouble maker, a citizen with a chip on your shoulder against authority figures, or one of the unluckiest persons i know to have that many bad experiences with cops clearly violating your rights... or all of the above.

Again, this thread is over... I learned a few things, we had a good discussion but now it just keeps going back and forth... your not going to see my side of it, your not going to see that your part of the problem, and I'm not going to see your side as right, and not going to change my mind about my perception of you, based on your post.

But I have gone away from this thread with more insider knowledge, and even think about this thread at night when I work. I have tried to approach people I make contact with in a better way, but then also have realized that nice don't always work with the people I deal with from 1 AM till 4 AM... "nothing good ever happens between 1 and 4 AM". A quote someone here at TG sent me via PM.

Drizzid · 10-29-2007, 09:53 AM

Quote:

I don’t "hate" anyone, especially cops but I do think its absolutely ridiculous how cops practically prey on citizens by stopping them for lame reasons like a window tint or broken plate bulb and end up throwing them in prison for small amounts of drugs...I’ve heard of people getting YEARS for possession here in Nevada. I’m not saying that crap isn’t dangerous or that there shouldn’t be consequences for possessing drugs but Prison? In 1994 I got 3 months house arrest for my lil pot experience which I thought was fair but I dont know how cops can rationalize locking people up for years when all they did wrong was get pulled over and have some **** in the car. Maybe its good I could never be a cop because id probably have to let too many people go so I wouldn’t have to lock em up and throw away the key. Now if they have drugs and a loaded 9mm under the seat…that’s a different story but possession of any drug shouldn’t be a felony.

I think your reasoning is a bit flawed Warcriminal. Cops aren't the ones who set your punishment, lawyers and judges do that. You are also entitled to an attorney to defend you in a court of law. Once you are arrested the only thing a police officer does is answer the questions that are asked from the lawyers.

Also you talk about cops shouldn't be able to pull you over for tint or license plate lights, you say they "prey" on citizens. Again I think your reasoning is flawed and here is why. If a citizen and I mean a true citizen is pulled over for one of these issues I would bet that %80-%90 or better are just given a warning but those medial traffic stops have taken more drunk drivers and drug users and dealers off the road than any of us could count. An officer has a very small window of things they can do to protect the public but not violate the publics rights that we enjoy here in the USA. You want a cop to protect you but you want to take all of their tools away to do their job. I would suggest you try doing a ride a long that others have mentioned earlier in this tread, you might learn a lot.

**Iamthefallen** · 10-29-2007, 01:18 PM

Magnum, keep in mind you also asked a very specific audience in this thread.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magnum50

my question to you guys who always take an opportunity to post negative comments about cops and police actions...

You haven't gotten many answers from the rest of us who stayed out of this one. I tend to think that for those of us who haven't formed a hardcore negative attitude against the police, there could be some slightly more balanced views and opinions.

freekyE · 10-29-2007, 01:56 PM

Without having a hatred for law enforcement, I cant really answer the initial questions of this post with relevance.

But, I can without a doubt, note the way every obvious police officer in this thread is grouping up and getting offended, along with doing their best to defend unknown police in stories and discredit anyone with a negative opinion of law enforcement at all.

All I can say is that in my opinion, this thread has either incredibly failed magnums original intentions (to improve police relations?), or was simply a trap looking to group "police haters" up for a good tounge lashing. I have to wonder why anyone would ask a question like "why do you HATE (insert anything important here)?" and expect a pleasant response?

I havent read any responses to the suggestions to improve relations with citizens, so I wonder what the real intent of this thread is. Does any subject involving any form of HATE belong at TG?

10-28-2007, 06:03 PM	#92 (permalink)
Pickle Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Land of Fruit and Nuts! Age: 35 Posts: 1,281	Re: Ok, why do YOU hate the cops... If I saw someone moving to the point I thought they were reaching under the seat...yes. __________________ "Umm Deputy these aren't my pants" - Common alarm cry of the North American Crackhead [tg-c1][ma-c1][defense]

10-29-2007, 01:05 AM	#95 (permalink)
Pickle Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Land of Fruit and Nuts! Age: 35 Posts: 1,281	Re: Ok, why do YOU hate the cops... CD, Outstanding post. __________________ "Umm Deputy these aren't my pants" - Common alarm cry of the North American Crackhead [tg-c1][ma-c1][defense]

10-29-2007, 02:02 AM	#97 (permalink)
Ferris Bueller Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Orlando, FL Age: 26 Posts: 5,160	Re: Ok, why do YOU hate the cops... Switch, I belive CD did concede that they were acting questionably. You even quoted both passages where he said so. Also, theres no parallel between your position and a bus being pulled over. The officer had motive to search your passenger. Whether or not those motives were made clear to you is not of consequence. My question is this: did you bother to ask? It is permissible to ask why things are going on the way they are. Also, when you are pulled over with a passenger, the officer can generally see what is going on inside your car. As I said earlier, maybe your friend made a movement that you would deem innocuous. If the officer felt differently and thought the move was made to attempt to hide something on his person, he is well within his rights to frisk him. And if a bus gets pulled over and the officer sees people on the bus making suspicious movements in his regard, he has the right to frisk them as well. Lastly, there is no shortage of police officers anywhere. If you approach one and politely initiate a conversation asking under what circumstances a frisk of a passenger in a vehicle is warranted, I very seriously doubt youd have a problem getting an answer, and Im pretty certain that its the same answer you've been given here. Whether or not that happens to be an answer you like and agree with is irrelevant in the eyes of the law. __________________ \|TG-6th\|Ferris Bueller Important TG Reading \| Support TG - Become a Supporting Member \| TacticalWiki - Your TG Guide Kicked/Banned? READ THIS FIRST! \| Complete list of TG Admins \| Think Someone Did A Good Job? Nominate Them For a Ribbon! Report Problem Players/Appeal Your Ban \| Learn TG - The TG Mentoring Program __________________ "Never underestimate the power of human stupidity." -Lazarus Long

10-29-2007, 05:01 AM	#99 (permalink)
warcriminal2 Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: norCAL Posts: 181	Re: Ok, why do YOU hate the cops... I definitely don’t hate cops, in fact I probably would have liked to become one. Unfortunately for me though when I was 18 (im 32 now) I got myself busted and received a felony over $30 worth of pot because someone I knew asked me to sell his "friend" some of my personal dope. Turned out, this "friend" was a female undercover cop that had actually enrolled in my High School and was UC for like3 months. The entire thing was a TOTAL joke. 3 months of undercover work and for what? To bust 24 teenagers for minor amounts of pot? No meth, no crack or other hard drugs…they found pot at a northern California High School. SURPRISE!!! Not exactly what I call "taking hard core criminals" off the street but if all you knew about my arrest was what the local news channel said in their 2 day coverage...that’s right, the story made Bay Area TV news 2 nights in a row when we all got arrested...and that was the same day OJ had his slow speed chase down in LA. Think about that one for a minute....OJ....followed by us? WTF??? I totally laugh about it now but when the media crew showed up at our arraignment the next day and the Sheriff brought the four of us that were 18 into the courtroom separate from all the other arrestees just so the news crews could get some good footage of us going to court in our orange jump suits I wasn’t laughing then. The media made us out to be "high school pot kingpins" or some crap like that….we were friggin crucified! I don’t "hate" anyone, especially cops but I do think its absolutely ridiculous how cops practically prey on citizens by stopping them for lame reasons like a window tint or broken plate bulb and end up throwing them in prison for small amounts of drugs...I’ve heard of people getting YEARS for possession here in Nevada. I’m not saying that crap isn’t dangerous or that there shouldn’t be consequences for possessing drugs but Prison? In 1994 I got 3 months house arrest for my lil pot experience which I thought was fair but I dont know how cops can rationalize locking people up for years when all they did wrong was get pulled over and have some **** in the car. Maybe its good I could never be a cop because id probably have to let too many people go so I wouldn’t have to lock em up and throw away the key. Now if they have drugs and a loaded 9mm under the seat…that’s a different story but possession of any drug shouldn’t be a felony. __________________ Warcriminal chillin n' killin wit authoritaaaaa!!

10-29-2007, 05:53 AM	#100 (permalink)
Switch Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: NJ Posts: 1,238	Re: Ok, why do YOU hate the cops... Hijackery -- start up a new thread, Drugs in the USA. There's plenty to talk about. __________________ \|TG\|Switch Better known as: That noob who crashed the chopper. That noob who ran over the mine. That noob who TK'd me with a sniper rifle. That noob who hit that APC at 300m with light AT! Our APC...

10-29-2007, 06:10 AM	#101 (permalink)
warcriminal2 Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: norCAL Posts: 181	Re: Ok, why do YOU hate the cops... good idea dude, this should be good __________________ Warcriminal chillin n' killin wit authoritaaaaa!!

10-29-2007, 08:57 AM	#102 (permalink)
Magnum50 Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Naples, Florida USA Age: 42 Posts: 4,023	Re: Ok, why do YOU hate the cops... Switch... your not reading replies, well you are but just what you want. I said, if what you say is true and your story is NOT missing other important elements, then the cop was wrong. But I also said and believe we are not getting the whole story from you. You keep posting the same argument, we answer, it's not what you like so you post again. As I said before, not truly knowing you or these incidents, but only knowing you from your post in this thread and other cop related threads, it is my belief that it's YOU with the problem, not all of us cops. you are either a smart ass trouble maker, a citizen with a chip on your shoulder against authority figures, or one of the unluckiest persons i know to have that many bad experiences with cops clearly violating your rights... or all of the above. Again, this thread is over... I learned a few things, we had a good discussion but now it just keeps going back and forth... your not going to see my side of it, your not going to see that your part of the problem, and I'm not going to see your side as right, and not going to change my mind about my perception of you, based on your post. But I have gone away from this thread with more insider knowledge, and even think about this thread at night when I work. I have tried to approach people I make contact with in a better way, but then also have realized that nice don't always work with the people I deal with from 1 AM till 4 AM... "nothing good ever happens between 1 and 4 AM". A quote someone here at TG sent me via PM. __________________ Magnum www.gettacticaldammit.com

10-29-2007, 01:56 PM	#105 (permalink)
freekyE Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: indiana Posts: 1,000	Re: Ok, why do YOU hate the cops... Without having a hatred for law enforcement, I cant really answer the initial questions of this post with relevance. But, I can without a doubt, note the way every obvious police officer in this thread is grouping up and getting offended, along with doing their best to defend unknown police in stories and discredit anyone with a negative opinion of law enforcement at all. All I can say is that in my opinion, this thread has either incredibly failed magnums original intentions (to improve police relations?), or was simply a trap looking to group "police haters" up for a good tounge lashing. I have to wonder why anyone would ask a question like "why do you HATE (insert anything important here)?" and expect a pleasant response? I havent read any responses to the suggestions to improve relations with citizens, so I wonder what the real intent of this thread is. Does any subject involving any form of HATE belong at TG?

Sponsored links

Sponsored links

Sponsored links