Ahmadinejad: a different story?

**Axis of Eeevil** · 11-08-2007, 02:34 AM

As a disclaimer, I don't base big, real-life decisions on stuff like this, but I really enjoy putting myself in the other shoes, trying to believe in an opposing viewpoint, and generally just trying out ideas. I take a lot of information with not just a grain of salt, but a whole lick of salt (you city people might not know what that is). That makes it easy to change my mind and allow myself to believe the next viewpoint--with a lick of salt. I've made some very important, life-changing discoveries by trying on a "wrong" or "ignorant" point of view.

Submitted for your consideration: a story I found on projectcensored.org that corrects a misquote that was reported worldwide by mainstream media.
I'm starting to feel the same way I did when the information we were getting about Iraq--all yellowcake, mobile WMD labs and UN inspections--was leading us all to a supposedly unavoidable war.

We may be being fed as much information biased against Iran as we were Iraq, to stir up fear, distrust, and a "let's hurt them before they hurt us" sentiment needed for a war of preemptive engagement.

I wonder what was really behind Ahmedinejad wanting to put a tribute at ground zero? What was really the reason the Port Authority didn't let him? Is it because he may have had too good a media opportunity to humanize himself (as insincere as, I believe, such a gesture would be)?

Don't get me wrong, I have no trouble believing he's a petty, extremely powerful and prejudiced individual (gee, who else might I describe like that?), who means Israel, and by extension, the US, no good. But is he so bad that we need to go to war? Sure, he can make nukes, but we've known that for a long time; hell, we even helped him get the stuff he needed to do it, apparently.

I'm sure everyone here remembers the 2005 story--no?--that broke open Halliburton's illegal brokering of information on Iran's nuclear program in trade for equipment--including centrifuges that allow separation of weapons-grade fissible material. Of course, that allegedly took place back in the 90's, when Dick Cheney was at the helm. He wouldn't do something like that.

From Project Censored:

Media Exagerates[sic] Threats from Iran

The quote attributed to Iran’s President Ahmadinejad, “Israel must be wiped off the map” has been met by worldwide condemnation and alarm. Ahmadinejad’s actual statements, however, were significantly less threatening. In October 2005 Ahmadinejad expressed the belief that the West oppresses Muslims through an imposed Zionist regime. He quoted the late Ayatollah Khomeini, “The Imam said this regime occupying Jerusalem must vanish from the page of time. This statement is very wise.” Clearly Ahmadinejad’s actual words call for regime change, not war. A similar statement by Ahmadinejad in December 2006, “As the Soviet Union disappeared, the Zionist regime will also vanish and humanity will be liberated,” was once more altered by AP and Reuter to sound more threatening and sent around the world. Author Arash Norouzi calls this “media manipulation and propaganda in action.” In May of 2006 President Ahmadinejad published an open letter to President Bush clearly asking for peace and the mutual respect of human rights. He warns that Western media, through contrived and deceptive information, has intensified the climate of fear that leads to attacks on innocent peoples. That letter was not picked up by the US news wires.

“‘Wiped Off The Map’ - The Rumor of the Century” Arash Norouzi, Global Research, 1/20/2007
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.p...articleId=4527
“ Full Text: The President of Iran's Letter To President Bush” Translated by Le Monde, Information Clearing House, 05/09/06
http://www.informationclearinghouse....ticle12984.htm

**MagnaCentipede** · 11-08-2007, 06:28 AM

Splitting hairs. Unless he said it in English, you're getting into the issue of accurate translation, and translation philosophy -- e.g., word-for-word vs. meaning-for-meaning.

**Skylark** · 11-08-2007, 11:59 AM

I like the idea of searching for truth and examining from other points of views. That has led me interesting directions as well. But I agree with MagnaCentripede here. I also think this guy is a raving psychopath whose diety requirements should be changed to include a small piece of lead a bit higher than the mouth.

**USN_Squid** · 11-08-2007, 01:28 PM

Ahmadinejad says things like this all the time. To take one quote that may have different meanings and use that to say he's not so bad just up to "no good" is silly. You're really not paying attention my friend.

Here's a video of him praising the martyrs and warning Israel and America of their final distruction. Also talking about the approaching abilities of Iran to "use the full capablities of Nuclear technology". Hmm, strange to bring up their desire for nuclear energy during a speech concerning nothing but war.

...countdown to someone discrediting the source or translation in 5, 4, 3, 2,......

icky · 11-08-2007, 04:34 PM

Obvious fake.

TheFatKidDeath · 11-08-2007, 05:55 PM

According to the Bush Administration, the Israel lobby, the mainstream press and other miss informed people, Ahmadinejad is the reincarnation of Adolph Hitler. Knowledge of Iranian politics and of their constitution are rarely even mentioned. The true level of power in Iranian politics lies not with Ahmadinejad but with a group of unelected clerics and in particular the supreme leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei. The supreme leader has final say in all things political and his word is final. Khamenei exerts influence through his control of the armed forces and the 12-member Guardian Council, which answers directly to him.

Ahmadinejad cannot dictate Iranian nuclear policies or the realtionship with the West. He certainly has made some outrageous statements but he is not in the position to carry out any threats. His presence serves the Bush Administration and the neo-cons more than the Iranian people.

Lucky Shot · 11-08-2007, 06:35 PM

His presence serves Bush and Neo-cons more then the Iranian People? Please help me understand this as I don't think that Bush and Neo-Cons really asked him to serve them in this manner, nor put him in a position to serve them.

He is the public face of Iran and says things (I don't have the ability to say whether they are correct or not in translation) that are outrageous, I agree with you. So why hasn't he been reeled in? Why has he continued to say outrageous things? What has he said that we should take serious? And what if he isn't bluffing?

Lucky Shot

**Axis of Eeevil** · 11-08-2007, 08:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by USN_Squid

Ahmadinejad says things like this all the time. To take one quote that may have different meanings and use that to say he's not so bad just up to "no good" is silly. You're really not paying attention my friend.

Silly. Yeah, I get that a lot. My point (badly made) is that we need to separate the idiot individuals who run countries (they all seem like petty dictators these days to me) from the people who live there who ARE the country. Do you want the Americans who are on the front pages and tabloids to be what others think everyone in this country is about?

A friend from Iran says that her family is really scared, like nobody understands who they are or what they want beacause it's already been decided.
Very very few people there want animosity, much less war or nukes. They think the Israeli govt. is a harsh and merciless government that doesn't listen to anyone who doesn't agree or support them. They wish there was more western music, fashion and TV shows allowed in their country. They wish more people would come and visit Iran, and wish there were more religious diversity in the tourists who go there. They want us to know about the cool stuff in their country--the food, music, cultural history and natural beauty.

I wish we could see that before it's too late.

**CingularDuality** · 11-08-2007, 08:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axis of Eeevil

Do you want the Americans who are on the front pages and tabloids to be what others think everyone in this country is about?

The whole reason that those people are on the front pages are because Americans are dumb and will buy those rags to read about Paris or Britney or whoever.

If you actually read decent periodicals, you can easily find out more about Iran and how tense the political situation is over there. It's no secret, it's just that most Americans are ignorant and get their information from news broadcasts or comedy shows that are based around sound bites and video clips. You're not going to learn much if that's your only source of info on an entire nation!

**USN_Squid** · 11-08-2007, 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axis of Eeevil

Silly. Yeah, I get that a lot. My point (badly made) is that we need to separate the idiot individuals who run countries (they all seem like petty dictators these days to me) from the people who live there who ARE the country. Do you want the Americans who are on the front pages and tabloids to be what others think everyone in this country is about?

A friend from Iran says that her family is really scared, like nobody understands who they are or what they want beacause it's already been decided.
Very very few people there want animosity, much less war or nukes. They think the Israeli govt. is a harsh and merciless government that doesn't listen to anyone who doesn't agree or support them. They wish there was more western music, fashion and TV shows allowed in their country. They wish more people would come and visit Iran, and wish there were more religious diversity in the tourists who go there. They want us to know about the cool stuff in their country--the food, music, cultural history and natural beauty.

I wish we could see that before it's too late.

I'm well aware that there are many people in Iran that don't agree with their current Theocracy, its well publicized. Unfortunately that doesn't change a thing about their government charging headlong towards nuclear armament all the while spouting off threats the way they do. The best thing for everybody would be for internal change in Iran, but their government doesn't take kindly to dissent.

Steeler · 11-09-2007, 11:46 AM

Arguing about whether or not Ahmadinejad is a "bad man" or whether the clerics are crazy or evil or whatever completely trivializes the complex relationship between the US and Iran and our foreign policy prospects in the region. The questions that we should be asking, as informed citizens, are things like, "does Iran pose a credible threat to any of our interests?" "What specifically are those interests and how are they vulnerable?" "What actions can we take to peacefully protect those interests."

Whenever I hear rhetoric about how crazy and vile and evil a foreign leader is coming out of the mouths of our own leaders, I know that I'm being fed propaganda. Doesn't matter if they got their translation right or not - they just want me to hate him. And then translate that hate into tacit and unconditional support for whatever course of action they've already decided on. Or, in an election year, to translate that hate into a vote for their party.

Kerostasis · 11-09-2007, 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steeler

"What actions can we take to peacefully protect those interests."

Why are only peaceful actions considered? Why does your line of questioning automatically dismiss non peaceful actions? Non-peaceful actions aren't always the most appropriate response, but sometimes they are.

**CingularDuality** · 11-09-2007, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steeler

Whenever I hear rhetoric about how crazy and vile and evil a foreign leader is coming out of the mouths of our own leaders, I know that I'm being fed propaganda. Doesn't matter if they got their translation right or not - they just want me to hate him.

Are you saying that since propaganda has been shoveled, that you should no longer hate this guy? If so, that's pretty messed up.

AMosely · 11-09-2007, 04:40 PM

I think Ahmadinejad is making a lot of diplomatic mistakes and putting his country at unnecessary risk, but I do not hate the man. He's actually right when he speaks out against the West unfairly propping up the 'Zionist regime.' The main problem is that he takes it too far, and in drawing attention with his speech and actions much of his rhetoric does more harm than good. It would be a tradgedy to see this behavior (and action, in terms of nuclear non-compliance) actually start a war. Iranians are smart people. Hopefully they will not let it go that far.

**CingularDuality** · 11-09-2007, 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AMosely

I think Ahmadinejad is making a lot of diplomatic mistakes and putting his country at unnecessary risk, but I do not hate the man.

I'm right there with you. But Steeler's rationale was a bit kooky. Basically, if President Bush says the sky is blue, Steeler will disagree because it must be propaganda.

11-08-2007, 02:34 AM	#1 (permalink)
Axis of Eeevil Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Corvallis, OR Age: 36 Posts: 1,034	Ahmadinejad: a different story? As a disclaimer, I don't base big, real-life decisions on stuff like this, but I really enjoy putting myself in the other shoes, trying to believe in an opposing viewpoint, and generally just trying out ideas. I take a lot of information with not just a grain of salt, but a whole lick of salt (you city people might not know what that is). That makes it easy to change my mind and allow myself to believe the next viewpoint--with a lick of salt. I've made some very important, life-changing discoveries by trying on a "wrong" or "ignorant" point of view. Submitted for your consideration: a story I found on projectcensored.org that corrects a misquote that was reported worldwide by mainstream media. I'm starting to feel the same way I did when the information we were getting about Iraq--all yellowcake, mobile WMD labs and UN inspections--was leading us all to a supposedly unavoidable war. We may be being fed as much information biased against Iran as we were Iraq, to stir up fear, distrust, and a "let's hurt them before they hurt us" sentiment needed for a war of preemptive engagement. I wonder what was really behind Ahmedinejad wanting to put a tribute at ground zero? What was really the reason the Port Authority didn't let him? Is it because he may have had too good a media opportunity to humanize himself (as insincere as, I believe, such a gesture would be)? Don't get me wrong, I have no trouble believing he's a petty, extremely powerful and prejudiced individual (gee, who else might I describe like that?), who means Israel, and by extension, the US, no good. But is he so bad that we need to go to war? Sure, he can make nukes, but we've known that for a long time; hell, we even helped him get the stuff he needed to do it, apparently. I'm sure everyone here remembers the 2005 story--no?--that broke open Halliburton's illegal brokering of information on Iran's nuclear program in trade for equipment--including centrifuges that allow separation of weapons-grade fissible material. Of course, that allegedly took place back in the 90's, when Dick Cheney was at the helm. He wouldn't do something like that. From Project Censored: Media Exagerates[sic] Threats from Iran The quote attributed to Iran’s President Ahmadinejad, “Israel must be wiped off the map” has been met by worldwide condemnation and alarm. Ahmadinejad’s actual statements, however, were significantly less threatening. In October 2005 Ahmadinejad expressed the belief that the West oppresses Muslims through an imposed Zionist regime. He quoted the late Ayatollah Khomeini, “The Imam said this regime occupying Jerusalem must vanish from the page of time. This statement is very wise.” Clearly Ahmadinejad’s actual words call for regime change, not war. A similar statement by Ahmadinejad in December 2006, “As the Soviet Union disappeared, the Zionist regime will also vanish and humanity will be liberated,” was once more altered by AP and Reuter to sound more threatening and sent around the world. Author Arash Norouzi calls this “media manipulation and propaganda in action.” In May of 2006 President Ahmadinejad published an open letter to President Bush clearly asking for peace and the mutual respect of human rights. He warns that Western media, through contrived and deceptive information, has intensified the climate of fear that leads to attacks on innocent peoples. That letter was not picked up by the US news wires. “‘Wiped Off The Map’ - The Rumor of the Century” Arash Norouzi, Global Research, 1/20/2007 http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.p...articleId=4527 “ Full Text: The President of Iran's Letter To President Bush” Translated by Le Monde, Information Clearing House, 05/09/06 http://www.informationclearinghouse....ticle12984.htm __________________ Living proof that "Teamplay ensmartens the idiotest of us!" "*Let us be neither hasty nor tardy, and let us always be ready to make a new start. If you fall, rise up. If you fall again, rise up again.*" St. Peter of Damascus, ~1196 AD The Tao of TG \| TacticalWiki:Irregulars \| Got The Time (zone)? \| BFCL \| TG University \| Visit Our Sister Site!

11-08-2007, 06:28 AM	#2 (permalink)
MagnaCentipede Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 1,946	Re: Ahmadinejad: a different story? Splitting hairs. Unless he said it in English, you're getting into the issue of accurate translation, and translation philosophy -- e.g., word-for-word vs. meaning-for-meaning. __________________

11-08-2007, 11:59 AM	#3 (permalink)
Skylark Join Date: May 2003 Location: Kansas City area (U.S.A.) Age: 36 Posts: 980	Re: Ahmadinejad: a different story? I like the idea of searching for truth and examining from other points of views. That has led me interesting directions as well. But I agree with MagnaCentripede here. I also think this guy is a raving psychopath whose diety requirements should be changed to include a small piece of lead a bit higher than the mouth. __________________ "I've TKed better men then you, and I wasn't even trying!" Skylark \|TG PCS\|

11-08-2007, 01:28 PM	#4 (permalink)
USN_Squid Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Denver Age: 38 Posts: 3,132	Re: Ahmadinejad: a different story? Ahmadinejad says things like this all the time. To take one quote that may have different meanings and use that to say he's not so bad just up to "no good" is silly. You're really not paying attention my friend. Here's a video of him praising the martyrs and warning Israel and America of their final distruction. Also talking about the approaching abilities of Iran to "use the full capablities of Nuclear technology". Hmm, strange to bring up their desire for nuclear energy during a speech concerning nothing but war. ...countdown to someone discrediting the source or translation in 5, 4, 3, 2,...... __________________ New to TG? Start here!

11-08-2007, 04:34 PM	#5 (permalink)
icky Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Ottawa Valley Posts: 6,154	Re: Ahmadinejad: a different story? Obvious fake. __________________ Peace through fear... since 1947!

11-08-2007, 05:55 PM	#6 (permalink)
TheFatKidDeath Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Santa Monica, CA Age: 39 Posts: 2,705	Re: Ahmadinejad: a different story? According to the Bush Administration, the Israel lobby, the mainstream press and other miss informed people, Ahmadinejad is the reincarnation of Adolph Hitler. Knowledge of Iranian politics and of their constitution are rarely even mentioned. The true level of power in Iranian politics lies not with Ahmadinejad but with a group of unelected clerics and in particular the supreme leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei. The supreme leader has final say in all things political and his word is final. Khamenei exerts influence through his control of the armed forces and the 12-member Guardian Council, which answers directly to him. Ahmadinejad cannot dictate Iranian nuclear policies or the realtionship with the West. He certainly has made some outrageous statements but he is not in the position to carry out any threats. His presence serves the Bush Administration and the neo-cons more than the Iranian people. __________________ \|TG-9th\| TheFatKidDeath "Born to Party, Forced to Work." http://www.theonion.com/content/node/55640 - Check me out on The Onion http://www.theonion.com/content/vide...ssfully_avoids - I'm on the local news!

11-08-2007, 06:35 PM	#7 (permalink)
Lucky Shot Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 4,639	Re: Ahmadinejad: a different story? His presence serves Bush and Neo-cons more then the Iranian People? Please help me understand this as I don't think that Bush and Neo-Cons really asked him to serve them in this manner, nor put him in a position to serve them. He is the public face of Iran and says things (I don't have the ability to say whether they are correct or not in translation) that are outrageous, I agree with you. So why hasn't he been reeled in? Why has he continued to say outrageous things? What has he said that we should take serious? And what if he isn't bluffing? Lucky Shot

11-09-2007, 11:46 AM	#11 (permalink)
Steeler Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Taxachusetts Age: 30 Posts: 2,952	Re: Ahmadinejad: a different story? Arguing about whether or not Ahmadinejad is a "bad man" or whether the clerics are crazy or evil or whatever completely trivializes the complex relationship between the US and Iran and our foreign policy prospects in the region. The questions that we should be asking, as informed citizens, are things like, "does Iran pose a credible threat to any of our interests?" "What specifically are those interests and how are they vulnerable?" "What actions can we take to peacefully protect those interests." Whenever I hear rhetoric about how crazy and vile and evil a foreign leader is coming out of the mouths of our own leaders, I know that I'm being fed propaganda. Doesn't matter if they got their translation right or not - they just want me to hate him. And then translate that hate into tacit and unconditional support for whatever course of action they've already decided on. Or, in an election year, to translate that hate into a vote for their party. __________________

11-09-2007, 04:40 PM	#14 (permalink)
AMosely Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Maine Age: 33 Posts: 2,630	Re: Ahmadinejad: a different story? I think Ahmadinejad is making a lot of diplomatic mistakes and putting his country at unnecessary risk, but I do not hate the man. He's actually right when he speaks out against the West unfairly propping up the 'Zionist regime.' The main problem is that he takes it too far, and in drawing attention with his speech and actions much of his rhetoric does more harm than good. It would be a tradgedy to see this behavior (and action, in terms of nuclear non-compliance) actually start a war. Iranians are smart people. Hopefully they will not let it go that far.

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