China Gooses the US Navy, something fierce

Daxx · 11-13-2007, 02:53 PM

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/liv...n_page_id=1811

Quote:

The uninvited guest: Chinese sub pops up in middle of U.S. Navy exercise, leaving military chiefs red-faced

Within torpedo range of the Kittyhawk even.

Searched: China, Sub

**Gillespie** · 11-13-2007, 03:16 PM

Yes, indeed. Quite the message.

**Axis of Eeevil** · 11-13-2007, 03:26 PM

What a blow for morale. I certainly don't mind the fact that the administration and upper military echelons get egg on their face for a hole in security, but feel for all the hard-working men and women who's faith in their leadership has just received another blow.

I doubt many people will see this as a positive, but I for one am glad it's China, rather than some of the many other nations with Nuclear capability, that made this statement.

If it was the Brits it would have been pretty funny, the French it would have been insulting; but if it had been Russia it would have been a clear escalation of the pseudo cold-war posturing that is being traded between us. Never mind if it had been Pakistan...

I think they're still a ways out from that kind of technology.

Santa · 11-13-2007, 03:26 PM

So what happened to all our high tech crap that would tell us about that...?

The Chinese claim ignorance, but thats gotta be a bunch of BS. Ya dont just "accidentally" go near that many warships, and you certainly dont surface in the middle of them.

AMosely · 11-13-2007, 03:37 PM

I think it's both asking and assuming a lot to think that the US Navy can detect everything in the ocean, and in a way these excercises are set up to check that very fact (among many others). I would hope that there are some Naval officers thinking that the excercise was a huge success in that we now know that not only is the Song class sub undetectable using current methods but China is in no mood to have the US carrying out excercises anywhere near China or Taiwan.

Good story.

AMosely · 11-13-2007, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Santa

So what happened to all our high tech crap that would tell us about that...?

I'll bet Bush is saying this right now!

**WhiskeySix** · 11-13-2007, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AMosely

I'll bet Bush is saying this right now!

can SOOO picture that

Daxx · 11-13-2007, 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axis of Eeevil

What a blow for morale. I certainly don't mind the fact that the administration and upper military echelons get egg on their face for a hole in security, but feel for all the hard-working men and women who's faith in their leadership has just received another blow.

I doubt many people will see this as a positive, but I for one am glad it's China, rather than some of the many other nations with Nuclear capability, that made this statement.

Exactly, it is a good thing. Think of it this way. Would your rather a little egg on your face now, or a fat torpedo up your ass later if tensions escalate?

**machowner** · 11-13-2007, 03:43 PM

Surfacing was no accident. That was a statement. It is difficult to say what happened. All of the hi-tech stuff still takes a person watching it closely.

Santa · 11-13-2007, 03:44 PM

Im gonna go with a fat torpedo up my ass. Mmmm.

Morganan · 11-13-2007, 03:45 PM

Meh, it's not that big of a deal to be honest. It's probably more of an intel failure then a technical error to be honest but without more information it's tough to make that judgment sitting here. A diesel sub with anechoic tiles tooling around at 2-4 knots wouldn't be the easiest thing to detect with passive sonar even if you knew it was there. Plus, was there a thermal layer to hide under? When did the sub last "snort" (come up to recharge it's batteries)

Some stripes will get torn off over this no doubt, and a few career's ruined over something that might very well have been darn near impossible to detect. They obviously surfaced because they were detected and knew they couldn't escape, so thus figuring we wouldn't do anything to a surfaced submarine.

We used to pull this stuff all the time to the russians only we would rattle their cage, then disappear. Nothing put's the fear of god into a naval officer then a submarine appearing on their scopes for a minute or two then disappearing. Without more information it's rough to make a judgement about who should get blame here.

xTYBALTx · 11-13-2007, 04:04 PM

We wouldn't know whether the US Navy had spotted that sub or not. How would we know?

**WhiskeySix** · 11-13-2007, 04:06 PM

Good point - they wouldn't say they saw them even if they did. Let them think they made it in unseen so they do the same thing "next time".

Daxx · 11-13-2007, 04:07 PM

True. Theres likely a metric-tonne of info that will never see the public light of day about this incident. Basically, the stuff Tom Clancy novels are made of.

boudreux · 11-13-2007, 04:14 PM

The story on most of the defense blogs is that this is a recycled story from last year. Isn't the Daily Mall one of Britain's most liberal rags? Somehow they are the only ones to publish something? A foreign paper?

What I remember reading from last year, is that the sub was identified, but how are you supposed to warn it away? Not as easy as escorting aircraft. Active pinging isn't used as much now as it would be in wartime, due to environmental concerns.

Also, some are saying, "Why let the Chinese know of our detection capabilities?" Let them get in close, and show us their tactics. Let them think our ASW capabilities are slipping.

11-13-2007, 03:16 PM	#2 (permalink)
Gillespie Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Colorado Springs, CO Posts: 1,067	Re: China Gooses the US Navy, something fierce Yes, indeed. Quite the message. __________________ <ArmA Information/SOPs> <ArmA Admin Team> <TG Req. Reading>

11-13-2007, 03:26 PM	#3 (permalink)
Axis of Eeevil Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Corvallis, OR Age: 36 Posts: 1,089	Re: China Gooses the US Navy, something fierce What a blow for morale. I certainly don't mind the fact that the administration and upper military echelons get egg on their face for a hole in security, but feel for all the hard-working men and women who's faith in their leadership has just received another blow. I doubt many people will see this as a positive, but I for one am glad it's China, rather than some of the many other nations with Nuclear capability, that made this statement. If it was the Brits it would have been pretty funny, the French it would have been insulting; but if it had been Russia it would have been a clear escalation of the pseudo cold-war posturing that is being traded between us. Never mind if it had been Pakistan... I think they're still a ways out from that kind of technology. __________________ Living proof that "Teamplay ensmartens the idiotest of us!" "*Let us be neither hasty nor tardy, and let us always be ready to make a new start. If you fall, rise up. If you fall again, rise up again.*" St. Peter of Damascus, ~1196 AD The Tao of TG \| TacticalWiki:Irregulars \| Got The Time (zone)? \| BFCL \| TG University \| Visit Our Sister Site!

11-13-2007, 03:26 PM	#4 (permalink)
Santa Registered User Join Date: Jul 2005 Age: 19 Posts: 3,355	Re: China Gooses the US Navy, something fierce So what happened to all our high tech crap that would tell us about that...? The Chinese claim ignorance, but thats gotta be a bunch of BS. Ya dont just "accidentally" go near that many warships, and you certainly dont surface in the middle of them.

11-13-2007, 03:37 PM	#5 (permalink)
AMosely Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Maine Age: 34 Posts: 2,793	Re: China Gooses the US Navy, something fierce I think it's both asking and assuming a lot to think that the US Navy can detect everything in the ocean, and in a way these excercises are set up to check that very fact (among many others). I would hope that there are some Naval officers thinking that the excercise was a huge success in that we now know that not only is the Song class sub undetectable using current methods but China is in no mood to have the US carrying out excercises anywhere near China or Taiwan. Good story.

11-13-2007, 03:43 PM	#9 (permalink)
machowner Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: TN Posts: 2,898	Re: China Gooses the US Navy, something fierce Surfacing was no accident. That was a statement. It is difficult to say what happened. All of the hi-tech stuff still takes a person watching it closely. __________________ \|New to TG? Start here\|*\|Become a Supporting Member\| "Remember to pillage BEFORE you burn!"

11-13-2007, 03:44 PM	#10 (permalink)
Santa Registered User Join Date: Jul 2005 Age: 19 Posts: 3,355	Re: China Gooses the US Navy, something fierce Im gonna go with a fat torpedo up my ass. Mmmm.

11-13-2007, 03:45 PM	#11 (permalink)
Morganan Join Date: Mar 2007 Age: 38 Posts: 601	Re: China Gooses the US Navy, something fierce Meh, it's not that big of a deal to be honest. It's probably more of an intel failure then a technical error to be honest but without more information it's tough to make that judgment sitting here. A diesel sub with anechoic tiles tooling around at 2-4 knots wouldn't be the easiest thing to detect with passive sonar even if you knew it was there. Plus, was there a thermal layer to hide under? When did the sub last "snort" (come up to recharge it's batteries) Some stripes will get torn off over this no doubt, and a few career's ruined over something that might very well have been darn near impossible to detect. They obviously surfaced because they were detected and knew they couldn't escape, so thus figuring we wouldn't do anything to a surfaced submarine. We used to pull this stuff all the time to the russians only we would rattle their cage, then disappear. Nothing put's the fear of god into a naval officer then a submarine appearing on their scopes for a minute or two then disappearing. Without more information it's rough to make a judgement about who should get blame here.

11-13-2007, 04:04 PM	#12 (permalink)
xTYBALTx Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 3,919	Re: China Gooses the US Navy, something fierce We wouldn't know whether the US Navy had spotted that sub or not. How would we know? __________________ A policy of freedom for the individual is the only truly progressive policy. -F.A. Hayek "$250,000 a year won't get me to Central Park West."

11-13-2007, 04:06 PM	#13 (permalink)
WhiskeySix Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Gillette Stadium, Section 309, Row 12, Seat 24 Age: 33 Posts: 8,535	Re: China Gooses the US Navy, something fierce Good point - they wouldn't say they saw them even if they did. Let them think they made it in unseen so they do the same thing "next time". __________________ *PoE2 Version 2.5 Overview \| Get started with PoE2 (for free!)*

11-13-2007, 04:07 PM	#14 (permalink)
Daxx Join Date: May 2003 Location: Kitchener, Ontario Age: 27 Posts: 1,247	Re: China Gooses the US Navy, something fierce True. Theres likely a metric-tonne of info that will never see the public light of day about this incident. Basically, the stuff Tom Clancy novels are made of. __________________ I am the one, I am the zero, I am your low resolution hero.

11-13-2007, 04:14 PM	#15 (permalink)
boudreux Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Bloomington, IL Age: 26 Posts: 1,146	Re: China Gooses the US Navy, something fierce The story on most of the defense blogs is that this is a recycled story from last year. Isn't the Daily Mall one of Britain's most liberal rags? Somehow they are the only ones to publish something? A foreign paper? What I remember reading from last year, is that the sub was identified, but how are you supposed to warn it away? Not as easy as escorting aircraft. Active pinging isn't used as much now as it would be in wartime, due to environmental concerns. Also, some are saying, "Why let the Chinese know of our detection capabilities?" Let them get in close, and show us their tactics. Let them think our ASW capabilities are slipping. __________________

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