Atomic Dog

But it apparently wasn't nicer for this guy...or quite a few others...

I mean, don't get me wrong, I follow your logic when it comes to thugs, gangsters, junkies, etc. This guy just looked confused and frightened. In fact, I can't figure out why they had to subdue him at all. They had him contained. Why didn't they just call in an interpreter?

I don't expect you to have the answers. But I'm sure these are questions that come to mind for the average person. There seems to be a disconnect within law enforcement concerning the value of human life. Even in cases where there is no death...can you imagine being an innocent man and dealing with that kind of trauma? I can.

I'm not a criminal but I have an undeniable mistrust and fear of abusive treatment at the hands of law enforcement. I can't be alone in this. My daughter had to witness some pretty borderlined behavior from an officer toward me once...now she's terrified every time she sees one. The kid is only 5 years old. I try to find the words to convince her that police men are generally good people...but sometimes I'm not even sure myself.

__________________

leejo

I almost killed a few people with a silent Emission the other day. I was on an elevator by myself and when the door opened in the lobby there were about 8 people waiting to get on the car I quickly vacated. Bon Voyage, suckers!

El_Gringo_Grande

here are some more


She is cuffed and in the police station.


Now I think the cop in this one was completely justified. He is alone on a dark road with a very drunk and unpredictable person. And help is a long way away.


Another one where I think the cops where probably justified. The guy is drunk and huge and could cause some good damage. It is pretty obvious that all three might not be able to physically restrain him. I doubt the truck has been searched thoroughly and a weapon could be easily obtained. Again on a dark street without much backup. He is not yet restrained and is resisting the restraints.

So...

A taser inflicts a tremendous amount of pain.

I don't know exactly how much but I have been jolted by ~15k volts before (working on a radar) and it was a horrible pain. You loose all control and it just sticks with you. You can't move. You can't breath. The feeling is like nothing I have ever experience before. Much worse than the time I was struck by a bat and a hell of lot scarier. Much worse than the train wreck I was in. Much worse than when I was in a car that flipped. Much worse than the time I got the sh** kicked out of me in a fight. It was much worse than either tear gas or pepper spray I have experienced. Such a horrible experience.

And I got shocked once. Not multiple times.

I simply don't feel that one individual should be able to inflict that kind of experience on another individual unless the situation is truly critical. There was another video posted in the forums that showed a man being shot multiple times. The guy was walking away and looked as if he was drawing a weapon of some sort. In that case a taser should have been used. But instead the cops went for their guns. Maybe they didn't have tasers. They should have.

I just don't see where the use of deadly force has decreased and that is what these tools where supposed to produce. If there is evidence that this is the case I would like to see it. But I have the feeling that if a cop truly feels like the situation is dangerous they are going to still use deadly force. In some cases I think the cop simply finds the situation annoying or they get pissed then they will use the taser to give the suspect what they deserve.

If the latter is the case then I think the cop should be punished severely. Like jail time severely. And maybe this happens. I hope so.

In the two videos where I think the taser was used appropriately it had nothing to do with "they got what they deserved". It was about the cops gaining control of the situation. The taser seemed to be the right tool for those situations. I feel the cops acted professionally and used the tool as intended.

But I have to say I have seen about as many incorrect uses as correct ones. Makes me nervous.

__________________
Sen. John McCain (AZ) For President '08
---
I’m not racists, I have republican friends. Radio show host.
- "The essence of tyranny is the denial of complexity". -Jacob Burkhardt
- "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds" - Emerson
- "People should not be afraid of it's government, government should be afraid of it's People." - Line from V for Vendetta
- If software were as unreliable as economic theory, there wouldn't be a plane made of anything other than paper that could get off the ground. Jim Fawcette

Sirusblk

In the case of the old man (thanks for the source), why was he tasered? To stop him from throwing a chair at a window? Well he stopped as soon as they came towards him. I'm sorry but they stood around like idiots and ignored him. And although he doesn't speak their language he knows how to get their attention. I find it hard to think that if we were in another country which language we didn't speak we wouldn't try to get their attention. Granted such a negative response may seem unjustified but we've all been at a loss for our actions at one point or another.

Why did they continue to taser him after he hit the ground? The whole point of the taser is to subdue, not punish or hurt or kill. The string is still attached, you can give em another jolt if you need to.

My point is, we're not all cops. I can't account for how I'd act in such a situation. I'd hope its for the best, but we all act differently. I don't want to take a religious use of voltage because I accidentally in a moment of thought relapse be accidentally killed.

I'm still interested in the official policy for taser use. And FYI I know our campus police, for a community college, are actual police officers, although I doubt they have all the training to be highway patrol officers. I know another college has their cops respond to 911 calls sometimes even.

__________________

CingularDuality

Excellent question. I don't know. Perhaps there's more to the story than we know? That video sure doesn't explain much.

Innocent men don't deal with that kind of trauma. I don't think I've seen the Taser used in a compliant arrest, and if it is, then I'll stand right next to you in denouncing the officer's actions.
Heh... I get shocked by 50,000 volts every day when it's hot and dry. So do you, every time you get a static jolt from touching a doorknob after walking on carpet. Quite the horrible experience.

You are absolutely 100% wrong here. Deadly force should always be met with deadly force. The only time I can think of where a taser should be used against a gun is in a very controlled environment (standoff with tac team and ballistic shields?) and LETHAL cover.

I've seen some stats out there, but I don't have time to look for them right now. I think the Taser website might link to them?

We've all been at a loss for our actions? We've all tried to throw chairs through large windows at international airports? Wha?

__________________

Become a supporting member! -- Shop at the Tactical Market!

Take the world's smallest political quiz! "I was touched by His Noodly Appendage."
TacticalGamer TX LAN/BBQ Veteran:

MagnaCentipede

I think it should come down to one question:

"If you had a pistol in your hand instead of a taser, would you have pulled the trigger?"

As far as I know, any time an officer pulls the trigger, he must file a report including neat things like "what was your backstop?" The question above seems like it'd be a good way to separate use of a taser to minimise the amount of harm done to everyone involved in the situation from a magic STFU device that makes annoying people fall down.

That was the whole selling point on tasers, remember? Police officers can now not-kill suspects and not-endanger bystanders. And yet here we have kids being tased who would be easily tamed with a sound baton thump and babies being dropped because beligerant daddy needed to be electrocuted.

__________________

TheSkudDestroyer

DON'T, DON'T, DON'T TASE ME BRO.

Trauma?!

Emotional? Physical? Ride with the LAPD for a week...

__________________
|TG-6th|Skud, NA Deputy Lead Tester
-F- Skudly

Atomic Dog

The LAPD signed up for that ride...not me.

__________________

CingularDuality

Absolutely incorrect. Tasers are not, have not, and never were intended to replace a pistol in any way, shape or form. I don't know where you got that impression, but it is completely false. A Taser is no replacement for lethal force. Period.

Tasers have reduced the injury rate of arrested persons and officers significantly, though. The Taser is MUCH safer and less likely to injure (and more effective) than either OC spray or baton strikes.

Most departments put baton strikes at the same level or HIGHER on the use of force continuum than tasers, because the likelihood of injury is so much greater with a baton. I don't know why you guys keep repeating the same false notion over and over.

__________________

Become a supporting member! -- Shop at the Tactical Market!

Take the world's smallest political quiz! "I was touched by His Noodly Appendage."
TacticalGamer TX LAN/BBQ Veteran:

Zoopy_T

In Canada there are 20 deaths due to taser use. Five of them in the past 3 months.

Lorax74

In order for that number to mean anything to me, I would need to know how many people died due to baton strikes or use of other "non-lethal" force over the same length of time, but not the same period (preferably before tasers were put into action).

__________________
Ikariam (Alpha)
Bayhios [35:70] > Truax (c) - Wine
Streardeos [39:70] > New Truax - Marble
Meikaios[35:68] > Truax Minor - Crystal

xTYBALTx

If the police can't play with their toys responsibly, then they should be taken away.

__________________
Current good song: Justice - Stress

TheFeniX

I've made numerous posts against private citizens "rolling over" in the case of police conducting illegal actions. But, like you said: that's the case for a lawsuit. You stand up to bullies, but a bully with a badge is better handled when he's not in a position he could cause you serious harm.

I won't make any kind of legal ruling because I don't know if it's an arrestable offense to refuse to sign a ticket.

This is a good argument and I agree with it. But it's not really a good argument against tasers themselves.

Besides, knowing what I know about airport cops, I'd do pretty much anything they say out of fear of lethal retribution. I hate airports and most airport personnel who work in the "secure areas" because I think they've figured out that they can be as rude and incompetent as possible and no one will call them on it.

Anywhere else in life, unless I'm on the clock and dealing with someone who could cause harm to my career or the business I work for, I go after generally rude or incompetent workers. An airport is the one place I really have to worry about getting into serious trouble just for voicing a complaint.

I would be interested to see the amount of deaths involving other forms of non-lethal force used by police officers.

It's not that I don't agree with you. I actually feel that the ease of use concerning the taser as opposed to actually "laying hands" or resorting to pepper spray has made officers a lot more bold when it comes to shirking negotiation in favor of "tasering them and sort things out once they're in handcuffs."

Unfortunately, at this point, I'm starting to agree with this sentiment more and more. When an officer's given a quick and easy non-lethal "solution" to a perceived problem, it seems they are taking the easy way out. It's become obvious that officers need a lot more training in both the physical and societal consequences of their tasers. I just don't see that happening. If that's the case, then we're going to see a great physical deterrent shelved because of a few bad apples.

Being a police officer is kind of a drag anyways. If I slack off at work and cut a few corners, I might piss a few people off and get chewed out. No big deal (although I do whatever I can to avoid that). When an officer slacks off and cuts corners, people can get killed and it becomes a public relations nightmare.

__________________

El_Gringo_Grande

But you are saying that the drunk woman, who is already at the police station and in cuffs, should have gotten it? Really? With at least three officers around?

And what I find amazing is that you seem to be saying that police should be the dealer of punishment. They should decide who gets inflicted with pain.

Remember I pointed out two videos where I thought the use of the taser was justified so I am not flatly against it. I am saying that tasers are used at times to inflict pain as to punish the suspect and not to aid in keeping the peace.

Plus police do not determine a persons guilt or inocence. Do they? Do cops have the right to punish somebody they think is being bad? Am I ignorant of something?

Now you are just being facetious. At least I hope so. (And in the measurements I have taken it is closer to 70k)

If not then trust me, that little shock you get from static electricity is nothing like what you get from a real power source. Don't think so? Go stick your finger in a 110 socket then tell me it is the same*. And that is 110. Multiply that by a couple hundred volts and you get the idea. I say again that I have never been tasered but the 15k volts I got is the most pain I have ever experienced in my life. It is the only time I truly thought I was going to die.

There are two distinct ideas you quoted of mine.

I assume you object to the idea of using a taser when the other guy has a deadly weapon?

What if you only think the guy is going for a gun but you don't see the gun? Or you only see a shining thing that looks like it might be a gun? Shoot then verify? What if it is a knife or a broken bottle? What if the suspect is running away and there is a chance to bring them down first with a taser? Shoot instead?

Obviously if the guy has a gun out and pointed at another then, yea, shoot them. But even if the guy has a weapon I don't think that warrants automatic execution.

In the video I mention http://www.tacticalgamer.com/sandbox...-shooting.html (video links no longer work) it would be good if something other than a firearm was used to stop the guy. Wouldn't it? Wouldn't it be better if the guy was first tasered if it could be done safely?

So yes, there are situations that call for deadly force. I think with proper training even in situations with firearms/knives or whatever tasers could be used. But I will defer to the cops on this issue.

(Or do you object to the first part? The part about one person should only be able to inflict that kind of pain if the situation is truly critical? If that is what you object to then I will say I think you are the one completely wrong.)

I am not arguing their safety and you are probably correct about this. But I remember way back in the early eighties when tasers and the like where first being discussed seriously for use by both the military and law enforcement. It was a popular idea back then and many articles appeared in the magazines I read. Popular science, Popular Mechanics, Guns and Ammo, Time and a whole bunch others.

Now in those articles I remember that these types of devices where envisioned to be replacements for firearms in many, if not most, situations. Even in cases where the user had a firearm themselves. I remember pictures, and a few videos on some of the news programs, where the demonstration actually had the subject holding a firearm or facsimile of one. And I think the devices where often marketed just that way.

On a continuum from "The police will never need to use violence again" to "These things will let you inflict great pain on any idiot you want and there is hardly a mark left" I believe the marketing was much closer to the left than the right side. But now it seems, in some cases, the right side of it is closer to reality.

Again I think the publics expectations of what tasers are and are to be used for does not match the LEOs expectations. Who is right? I hope the public is. I don't want the police deciding what is right or wrong.

The problem is that the taser is effective but there is also a cost. Now Cingular, you may be fine with that cost and good for you. But you don't speak for all people. Many people simply do not like the sight of individuals writhing on the ground in pain while a cop calmly sits back and observes. And some don't like the fact that cops can inflict sever pain on other people simply because they are not reacting exactly in the manner or in a speed suitable to the cop inflicting the pain.

And the thing about the baton use. Well, if a cop misuses a baton and breaks a bone you then have evidence to sue somebody. You can show the bruise or cast to the world. There is something the rest of the world can really understand. But even so. Lets say that the woman in the one video was, instead of being tasered was wacked with a baton a couple dozen times. Assume the cop is a master with the baton and no injury is inflicted.

Do you think that would be more or less acceptable by the public?

And one more question. If a person was to strike a cop with a "open handed" method and another was to taser a cop while resisting, which would be punished more. Would it be equal? The guy doing the tasering is not harming the cop in any way. Why would it be anything more that eluding police. Would it be anything more than that?

*Yes, there is no amp limit with respect to the human body when dealing with house circuits.

__________________
Sen. John McCain (AZ) For President '08
---
I’m not racists, I have republican friends. Radio show host.
- "The essence of tyranny is the denial of complexity". -Jacob Burkhardt
- "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds" - Emerson
- "People should not be afraid of it's government, government should be afraid of it's People." - Line from V for Vendetta
- If software were as unreliable as economic theory, there wouldn't be a plane made of anything other than paper that could get off the ground. Jim Fawcette