El_Gringo_Grande

Voltage is just potential.

Current is the releasing of that potential and that is what kills. Low current has less chance of killing. 10 mA you feel it. I think around 30-50 mA you have involuntary muscle contraction and can't let go. 100 mA good chance of death. > 1 amp probably not going to live.

A static electrical shock can send more than an amp through your body. But is is of such a short duration that it isn't going to do much.

Plus you have to take into account the path the electricity takes. 10 mA can definitely cause severe muscle contractions but it has to get to the right nerves to cause this to happen. I think 1 mA at the right place in the brain could cause death.

Now a taser doesn't rely on massive amounts of current to do it's work. I don't know how exactly but it does use some kind of magic to cause massive and painful muscle contraction. I think it actually just disrupts the normal nerve communication. Much like I experience with the shock I got long ago during "A" school.

How much voltage did I get? Don't know exactly because I wasn't measuring myself. I do know that it went from my right elbow to my left knee through dungarees and it was, if I remember, about 90 hz. And I do know that it hurt something fierce. Duration? Don't remember. Long enough to count but not so long that the instructor saw what happened. I would say maybe 1/2 a second.

I have heard people describe taser hits and what they describe sounds much like what I felt. If it is any worse then it is a horrible pain indeed.

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I’m not racists, I have republican friends. Radio show host.
- "The essence of tyranny is the denial of complexity". -Jacob Burkhardt
- "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds" - Emerson
- "People should not be afraid of it's government, government should be afraid of it's People." - Line from V for Vendetta
- If software were as unreliable as economic theory, there wouldn't be a plane made of anything other than paper that could get off the ground. Jim Fawcette

MagnaCentipede

I haven't researched them, but I think tasers are based on the pulsation of current, which is what triggers the muscle response.

The baton can be used with more judgement. You can choose the point of impact and determine how much damage goes where. A taser throws juice into the body and as has been seen by statistical evidence, it can do anything from knock someone down to put someone in the grave. Taser has its place... if you have a drunk/addict ranting and raving and swinging a knife at people, tase 'em bro and throw him in the tank. Lethal force isn't needed, but neither is putting an officer in danger with personal apprehension. But that doesn't mean everyone needs to be tased bro.


As for baton being considered "higher" on the continuum of force, that's just because lawyers who need to be turned into artificial reefs will blow up photographs of the brusies and play a tiny violin and try to get money by claiming excessive force. Tasers are, like a pit-bull, practically harmless except when they kill, which makes them less of a liability. Every baton strike summons a lawyer from the depths of hell, only tasers who get excited do likewise.


Tasers are a great tool, but at least through the media filter, it seems the taser is being used as an easy-out.

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CingularDuality

Nope. I actually haven't watched that video yet.

No, the taser should only be used to effect an arrest. I'm not saying that tasers aren't abused, or that more training isn't needed. I'm saying that it's a highly effective tool that is making people safer.
[quote]I assume you object to the idea of using a taser when the other guy has a deadly weapon?

What if you only think the guy is going for a gun but you don't see the gun? Or you only see a shining thing that looks like it might be a gun? Shoot then verify? What if it is a knife or a broken bottle? What if the suspect is running away and there is a chance to bring them down first with a taser? Shoot instead?

Obviously if the guy has a gun out and pointed at another then, yea, shoot them. But even if the guy has a weapon I don't think that warrants automatic execution. [quote]
I'm not going to get into an argument over the use of deadly force, but police do not execute anyone. They use weapons to stop people from hurting themselves or others. Stopping people with a gun sometimes kills that person, but killing is not the intent, stopping the person is the intent.

Right now, people seem to think that the taser is worse. I have no idea why.


Let me put it this way. A person that has incapacitated a cop to a point where the cop's gun was available to the bad guy would be handled similarly. And the cop would be completely justified to use deadly force to prevent being tasered or manhandled again. Regardless of whether the actions were causing the officer injury. The situations don't really compare, as police are justified in demanding compliance during an arrest, while at the same time actions that incapacitate a police officer are deadly because every single call that a cop responds to will have at least one gun on the scene.

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sordavie

Voltage equals current (amps) multiplied by resistance (ohms). Don't you guys remember Ohm's Law from HS chemistry?

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El_Gringo_Grande

I think I know the reason people think the taser is worse than the baton or some other thing.

1. To a small extent the taser is some voodoo kinda magic new technology thing. For some that is enough to be afraid.

2. With a baton the other guy has a chance to fight back. With a taser it is pretty apparent that the person getting it can't fight back. That is a good thing in most cases from the LEO's perspective. But I think it hits at our sense of fairness. And you gotta remember Americans love to root for the bad guy and we like a fair fight.

3. It is apparent that the person getting the shock is in much pain. My wife saw one of the videos and had to turn away. She was outraged. I think you need to realize that many find the idea of government inflicting pain upon it's citizens is revolting. Just realize and accept it. It doesn't matter the reasoning behind the infliction of the pain. Especially when those inflicting the pain often look, at best, detached or, at worse, oddly curious.

That is why I asked the question about if a cop was attacked by a taser but did not go for the gun. Just did it to get away. How would the courts react to that? Or the public? Outside the gun being exposed it is pretty safe for the officer. The cop, buy their own reasoning, isn't going to be harmed.

But something tells me a court would probably punish the person more severely in that case. But maybe not. I don't know, that is why I asked.

__________________
Sen. Barack Obama (IL) For President '08
---
I’m not racists, I have republican friends. Radio show host.
- "The essence of tyranny is the denial of complexity". -Jacob Burkhardt
- "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds" - Emerson
- "People should not be afraid of it's government, government should be afraid of it's People." - Line from V for Vendetta
- If software were as unreliable as economic theory, there wouldn't be a plane made of anything other than paper that could get off the ground. Jim Fawcette

MagnaCentipede

Irony: You can electrocute to apprehend a murderer, but they can't be given the chair because that's somehow "inhumane."

Which is sad. Here in Florida, old sparky's been getting lonely, despite the evening news showing lots of people who have earned a sit-down.


I remember High School Chemistry. One, it had nothing to do with electricity, and mostly it was the girls bending glass and the guys playing cards.

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xTYBALTx

My high school chemistry class was taught by a rookie teacher - and was stuffed with the finest smart-asses, worst slackers, and dumbest doornails in our grade; it was the Dream Team of Awesome. We tormented her until she cried and ran out of the room. One of the smart quiet girls lit herself on fire with a Bunsen burner.

This thread is taking a huge turn for the better. Anyone else got good stories? I have several more from this class alone, it was perhaps the greatest class in the history of La Jolla.

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Ferris Bueller

I was taught chemistry in high school by a teacher who actually worked on the Manhattan Project with Einstein. She has a daughter who was born in 1944, and we always postulated that she was the love child of Einstein and her mom.

But it was a badass class. The first day of class, she took us outside and stretched a tube from the methane outlets in the lab out the window and into a 50 gallon drum of soapy water. She then proceeded to create a column of bubbles 20+ feet tall (methane bubbles wont tip over cause the methane is lighter than air) and lit it on fire. It was one of the most spectacular things ive ever seen. I saw it recreated on mythbusters recently actually. The rest of the class was just as interesting. She did a hell of a job for a 80+ year old teacher.

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Sirusblk

I'm sorry to break your guy's fun (sorry I didn't have fun with my teacher that much :P), but with the taser usage I get feelings of fear.

At what point do we sacrifice our own freedoms to have our freedom protected?

Is it appropriate to use the taser in a lethal situation? Absolutely, no argument here. But if someone is in a contained area, and you're whole motive is to not arrest them, why use the taser? An old man died because of that. That is unacceptable. If he trashes the place, charge him later, do not taser him or lay a finger on him if you have no intention of arresting him.

If they're running away that's a tough call, but 2 steps back is hardly running away. The taser should be a last resort in a non lethal environment, even if that. I'm sorry but giving cops this kinda power is reminiscent of Judge Dredd.

The first thing I had a problem with that movie was (besides Silvester Stallone's bad acting) was the line Judge, Jury, AND EXECUTIONER! Never sat right with me, even at age 12 I realized that.

The image of a police officer with a taser gun in his hand, standing unthreatened with his/her finger wrapped tightly around the trigger with a person writhing on the ground in pain is an image of torture hands down.

I'll say it again, as soon as the hit the ground they should be treated as incapacitated unless they're still swinging a knife. I'd hope thats the same policy with stun batons. The phrase "Never kick a man when he's down" should be taken with all literal intent.

Isn't the heart a muscle? It is last time I checked and the whole prospect of a taser is to force all muscles into contraction. So it's fairly safe to assume that if you're tasing a suspect for an extended period of time (doesn't need to be long, need I remind you) it'll stop the heart from pumping blood and supplying oxygenated blood to the brain. Also any muscle contracting a certain way can constrict blood flow right? (I'm sorry I didn't have the best of teachers in the science department) So we can infer that a taser can have long lasting effects, maybe not amputation but still...

Maybe a solution is to change the setup of the taser itself. Remember Star Trek (and how can you not?!) and their phasers having stun settings as well as kill? I'm not saying we should have kill settings but obviously theirs a time when you need it to subdue someone with more force than merely catching their attention.

The taser is lethal force. If it's killed someone then it's lethal force. Yes that pushpin at your desk can be used with lethal force. It's all the same, and calling it not is troubling...

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Bommando

The reoccurring theme of all those videos is: Don't do dumb stuff and you won't get Tased. Seems easy enough to avoid.

Examples of dumb stuff:

• Turning your back and walking away from a guy with a Taser who expressly tells you not to move. Dumb? Check.
• Screaming like a maniac and advancing on someone with a Taser. Dumb? Check.
• Throwing chairs and computer equipment at windows on private property. Dumb? Check.
• Being a smartass and refusing to leave when asked. Continuing to be a smartass and refusing to leave when continually asked to leave private property. Asking someone not to Tase you when the easiest solution is just to leave the private property they're asking you to leave. Dumb? Check.

While there are varying degrees of aggression on both sides of the argument, I can pretty much guarantee that I could safely avoid getting Tased in 99% of situations with little inconvenience to myself by (wait for it) not being dumb.

Then again, I live in Australia, where the police presence is usually helpful rather than intrusive.

Sirusblk

When people don't understand me I resort to using violent actions directed at no one. Pounding my fists usually does it for me, and hey it worked for Benito Mussolini and I heard he got a whole country to speak his language!

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Tarenth

I'll start out by addressing this little tidbit here. You need to actually read it to understand or it becomes a faceless statistic. The actual title of the article is "Taser-RELATED Deaths in Canada" and not deaths due to taser. A quick run down follows with a shuffle through the interactive map and actual causes.

09/03 - Cause of death - Acute Cocaine Intoxication
07/03 - Cause of death - Lethal Cocaine Levels
04/03 - Cause of death - Cardiac Arrest. High levels of cocaine in system.
05/04 - Cause of death - Lethal Cocaine Levels
06/04 - Cause of death - Acute Cocaine Intoxication and Psychosis
*6/05 - Cause of death - Respiratory Failure (possible taser relation)
10/07 - Possible cause of death - Excited delirium which results in irregular heartbeat and sudden cardiac arrest. Prevalant in psychiatric patients or people using cocaine (this is the guy in the airport terminal)
11/07 - Cause unknown. RCMP officers used pepper spray and a collapsible metal baton before using a taser. Death was 5 days after he was subdued
12/05 - Cause of death - Acute Cocaine Toxicity
03/04 - Cause of death unknown. Inquiry scheduled on 12/07. Cardiac arrest possible drug, psycosis, or taser related
08/06 - Cause of death not stated - Death was 20 days after he was subdued.
05/04 - Cause of death - Cocaine-Induced Delirium
07/05 - Cause of death not stated - No taser relation determined by Special Investigations
*7/04 - Cause of death not stated - Possible taser relation
08/04 - Cause of death - Drug overdose
09/07 - Cause of death not yet determined - Suspect was exhibiting signs of psycosis and suffered self inflicted head trauma before death a day after he was subdued
10/07 - Cause of death not yet determined - Death was 3 days after he was subdued
*7/05 - Cause of death not stated - Suspect died after taser was used when both pepper spray and metal baton did not subdue him
05/05 - Cause of death - Excited Delirium
*1/07 - Cause of death under investigation - Suspect suffering from psychiatric problems. Possible Taser related

So out of those 20 'taser caused deaths' only 2 have possibility of being taser related, 1 is still under investigation, and 1 is taser related in addition to use of a baton and pepper spray in 'appropriate force'.

The message Zoopy is trying to convey is clear! If you use drugs or are sick, you have a high possibility of death with or without a taser. Also, if you get pepper sprayed then beat with a baton you have better chances giving up instead of continuing to fight until they use a taser.


The 'average citizen' suffers greatly from the service without cost problem. I'm sure everyone is familiar with it. It was a popular subject matter that was recently dropped after 9/11.

"Teachers, Police Officers, Firefighters, and Emergency Response Crews. They are our heroes, yet we still pay them like losers."

The taser is a tool used to subdue people so that an officer may gain control of the situation without risk of doing lasting harm to the suspect or themselves. It is a LOT more dangerous to use pepper spray (which is close range and has lingering affects on the surrounding area and bystanders) or a baton (a baton is a lethal weapon and even in the hands of a skilled user the likely hood of accidental death or injury is a lot higher). This may shock and surprise people, but during the course of their duty I'm reasonably certain that the officer, or officers, on site will prioritize the public, themselves, and the suspect's safety and well being in that order. That means if it is the quickest way to subdue a suspect they will turn to the taser because of the benefits it has over other means.

Honestly, what are the alternatives? Pepper spray has a linger affect on the surrounding area which can lead to irritation of the eyes and respiratory distress. Baton use, as stated before, is still risky and has the negitive PR of leaving lasting injuries and the viewing material of an officer beating someone with a baton. Physical combat is also very risky and carries high risk of injury towards the officer and the suspect as well as all the normal dangers if you aren't some hand to hand combat master. We train our officers well, but not THAT well. There's also the negitive PR of an officer beating up a suspect with their bare fists.

The taser causes excruciating pain (refer to my first post with the ever so popular TG flick "Magnum vs the Taser") but has no long term affects beyond that. It hurts, deal with it. If you are going to fight the police and aggrevate the situation they will subdue you in a quick and relatively harmless fashion. There is a lot of discretion to what a police officer can use as neccesary force up to the use of lethal force. Given the pros and cons of each tool is it any surprise that officers are turning to the relatively safe taser as opposed to the alternatives?

I think El Gringo Grande made the best point even if he hit it on the head unintentionally and missed the actual point by a mile and a half.

Cops are human just like you and me. They are citizens who have undergone training and a great deal of scrutiny to achieve that position. They are placed in positions of danger so that others don't have to deal with it. Given the option between choice A, which can leave lasting damage, possibility of negitive public relations, misguided public sympathy, and a law suit, or choice B, where people who don't want to sympathize will hold it up as an example of cruelty in the course of duty when properly executed, I'd go with choice B. Wouldn't you?

Crazy lady making a fuss in the lockup. I can get into a fight with her causing physical injury to both herself and myself while having people scream "police brutality" and a possible law suit as I subdue her, or I can taser her and have people scream "police brutality!" without any danger to myself or her. Humm...tough choice.

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My sanity is not in question...
It was a confirmed casualty some time ago.

tHa_KhAn

I've never been tased, but have inadvertently been pepper sprayed. That stuff is horrible. Several of my officer buddies will tase each other as jokes(without the prongs), but would never dream of pepper spraying them. That stuff is just horrible. I'm not into the kind of pain of a taser deliver so I was never a volunteer at their house to get tased, but the more adrenaline junkies seem to think it was actually a rush.

The problem with tasers is that they are convenient and easy to the officer. People forget how dangerous it is despite someones size to place your hands on someone. There are plenty of people who are deceptively strong or skilled. Why risk any more harm to anyone involved? I think people who believe going up and grabbing someone is a better solution than a taser have not been involved in much physical grappling as adults, if ever. If you don't want to be handcuffed, you're not going to be handcuffed by one person unless that person is just some super freak or they induce pain to get you to comply. Doing so without affecting themselves or those around(like pepper spray), is a great use of the taser.

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Zoopy_T

Someone actual looked at the link? Good. I was hoping someone would since almost all the taser deaths are due to obsessive force by police officers not drugs or the taser itself. The fact is that most taser deaths were due to asphyxiation.

Most deaths are either die to being tasered multiple times in a small period of time or being tasered along with other forms of of police containment (i.e: pepper spray or putting pressure on the chest cavity when the victim is on the ground). A small percent are due to the suspects health condition.

So it's not the taser's fault, its the cops behind the tasers.


Good reads:

http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/engamr200022007
http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/engamr511392004

TheFeniX

It's not even that. A current on the order of milliamps (1 thousandth of an amp) can kill you. Somewhere around 15 milliamps is definitely fatal in most cases.

It actually better to get hit with a higher amount of amperage because of it's ability to (as my electronics teacher puts it) "blow you out of your boots." A fatal amount of lower amperage will hold you to the current doing a serious number on your heart and nervous system whereas high amperage (around 20+ amps) will just stop your heart once it knocks you to the ground. After this, your heart has an 85% chance of restarting on its own.

I seriously doubt that because even short duration high amp jolts can be lethal. Where is all this energy being stored?

Now, lightning is essentially just massive amounts of static electricity. But miles of sky being used as a capacitor is a bit different than wearing a wool sweater on a dry day.

Metal cased electronics can build up massive amounts of static charge if not properly grounded (the third prong on the plug). Those can be lethal, easily. Mainly because you have a high voltage power source and a conductive housing to store the charge in.

Electrical safety has always been more centered on protecting your heart. Example: never grab a charge wired with both hands so the current couldn't flow through your heart. Why you would grab one in the first place, I don't know. I might be mistaken, but I'm pretty sure both your skull and the fluid surrounding your brain makes it extremely difficult to get a current to flow directly in there.

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