CingularDuality

Exactly my point.
Guess what? Give a cop 10 minutes and I bet he could point out several laws that you have broken. Officers have a lot of discretion in enforcing the law, and they probably make no arrests on 90% of the unlawful activity that they observe. Letting a speeder off with a warning, telling a bum to leave the bus station, ignoring the jaywalker, etc... Act rude or obnoxious and do you think it's unreasonable for that discretion to swing the other direction? You're absolutely right that professionalism is required at all times, but you have to remember that cops are people too. They can't all be experienced vets. Learning how to remain professional when you're having a bad day is something that can only come with experience. It sucks, but until society decides that police (and firefighters and soldiers and teachers and...) are worth as much as a ballplayer or actor or rockstar, that's the way it is going to be. Unless you have the solution?

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ScratchMonkey

Same reason people argue on forums rather than go look up the facts. Even if they're just a google away.

tHa_KhAn

I'm plenty happy if criminals fear our Police. As I said, the common citizen already has respect. The fear or Force based respect from criminals is perfectly acceptable. People only follow laws to avoid consequences. If the consequences are too light, laws aren't followed. Who do you know honestly goes the speed limit because they are thankful the government posted a safe speed? If the gang-banger in question respected the law and typical consequences, they probably wouldn't be a gang-banger. As you already mentioned, other countries where police can beat the crap out of people for doing stupid stuff, there are less petty crimes. While no one wants renegade cops, seeing jackasses getting tased makes good youtube material.

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TheFeniX

Seriously doubtful, unless he's a member of the fashion police.

No it isn't. It's an attitude a person has to develop at some point in their life. Many people think you need experience in order to look like a professional, but it's real easy to put on that you know more than you do just by the way you act. And from what I've seen of county cops, this attitude of general intimidation is actually taught to rookies if I'm to take the "Let's teach these guys how we handle this kind of incident" then resorting to screaming at high school girls (yes, screaming) until they cry incident at it's face value.

You think a girl brought to tears by some emotionally insecure officer is going to consider calling the police her first option when she's in trouble?

I've said this before: If the average employee is incompetent at "Joe's PC world," I can walk down to "Bill's PC shack" instead. Hell, I've been through 7 auto mechanics trying to find one honest one. Exactly where do I turn when I can't trust the police force? Call 911 and ask for a Highway Patrolman?

I've gone onto jobs without any idea how I'm going to get them done and feel inside like I'm about to crap my pants at the prospect of having to handle an entire install by myself with no backup, except what I could possibly get out of the equipment manufacturer. Did my customers ever see this? No, they though I was just some "networking guru (their words, not mine)" that literally just knew everything about everything.

Why, because I projected that confidence, and early on in my career. And I didn't have to resort to bullying to show that confidence.

Oh boo hoo. I could name numerous professions that don't get the money or the value that they deserve. Just because you aren't getting paid what you should be, doesn't mean you need to be a dick about it.

The average beat cop makes more than I did as lead tech at my old job. Sure, I complained, and A LOT, but never once to my customers or anyone not directly associated with my job. That's just the way it is.

Further, the amount of money paid doesn't determine how maturely someone will handle a job. Seen many mature and professional Rock artists lately?

Is that respect? Or is that fear? Most of the time I've heard "You should respect an officer's authority" it's usually followed by an "or else." That's not respect, that's fear.

You base this off what? The average citizen follows the law because they're essentially decent enough people. Sociopaths follow the law only because of consequences.

Irrevelvant, and countered easily by something like the war on drugs. In some cases, a drug conviction can get you more time than a 1st degree murder charge, yet there's still thousands of people a year who are involved in the drug trade. The fear doesn't seem to be working.

Most people aren't murderers, not because they are afraid of criminal prosecution, but because they understand that murder is wrong. And if the American justice system is used as a basis, then you learn that most violent crime is committed by repeat offenders anyways.

How does any of this fight my assertion that cops who enforce their authority through fear and intimidation are just the same as bullies and gang-bangers?

This logic is pretty self-defeating. Look at the LAPD. You think anyone actually respected the LAPD? No, they just complied for fear of ending up on the wrong side of a confrontation. This creates an aura of fear around the average citizen and affects the desire to actually call the police when they are in trouble.

Considering my interactions with county cops and the fact that I live outside city limits really puts me in a bind if I actually did have to call the police during an incident at my home.

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tHa_KhAn

What Utopian society do you live in? Pretty much every traffic law, Drugs and Alcohol, noise, curfews, sex, etc....are only followed because there are consequences to getting caught. While I think most would agree that Armed Robbery and Murder are bad things? How many really have a problem with 18 year olds drinking a beer? How many drive 65 in a 55 when it's raining? No one I know does that because they're "decent" people. They do that because it's the law and they would like to avoid the consequences. The obvious is that most of those laws are ignored because the consequences are either unknown or worth the risk. Sociopaths are the ones who do not follow the law, not the ones that do.

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TheFeniX

Every crime you listed, the average person (both rationally and irrationally) views as victimless crimes. And even further, are misdemeanor acts that are only criminal in that they can actually bring charges against you.

Then again, you're also listing "crimes" generally targeted at and broken by teenagers, who are generally rebellious anyways. Let's not even go into the fact that besides traffic laws and and some drug laws, these are generally targetted directly at teenagers.

And because they feel there's no real problem with the actions they take, there's no real basis to not do it unless it's fear of the consequences.

And considering how many underage drinkers there are and how many traffic violations seen daily, the fear of getting caught isn't working.

You don't understand the concept of a sociopath. There are numerous fully functioning sociopaths in this country right now. It's the sociopaths that either stop caring about the consequences of their actions or who believe they are too smart to get caught that are the truly dangerous ones. Just because you don't care about empathy doesn't make you a law breaker, and just because you do doesn't make you a paragon of virtue.

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Sirusblk

Ahhh, someone's never read the communist manifesto and understood it properly. You can either be a pessimist and believe all human beings to be inherently evil or an optimistic and think all human beings to be inherently good.

I follow laws out of ignorance. I don't know the ins and outs of law, after all when is that taught to us? In school? I follow laws because I know what's right and whats wrong in my mind. I've been lucky so far that my ideals haven't conflicted with that of our laws. If there is such a time where I find out I'm wrong I would like to know when I'm stopped by the police what law I've broken and how. A simple question. Just accepting tickets and going to court not knowing what the hell happened in the first place is not right.

I believe there's an astounding statistic like 80% of crimes are committed as crimes of opportunity and are first time offenders. The notion that all bad guys are repeat offenders is a ridiculous accusation. If I break the speed limit to not seeing the change in speed limit in one sign, sorry I don't want to expect to be tased. I haven't done anything bad yet, and I don't want to expect to be tased for being pulled over for the first time.

People should not fear their government, the government should fear their people.

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tHa_KhAn

To get back on topic, a quick summary:

I feel that officers using devices such as tasers to create respect from fear for those individuals who would otherwise not respect officers is a good thing. I feel that respect should be given to officers who are in a traffic stop or investigation of another "victimless" crime as was being discussed. I don't think anyone has a problem with murder suspect getting tased for resisting arrest. I believe most of these types of laws that are misdemeanors are followed only by the fear of consequences, not from some inherent view of right or wrong. If they are not followed(which most listed aren't) it's because like you said the consequences are not creating the desire to follow the law.

Sociopaths are not the only ones concerned with consequences as you stated earlier or are you suggesting that if you are concerned about consequences you are a Sociopath, I may have misinterpreted. I would not consider the little old lady down the road a sociopath because she doesn't want a citation.

I don't feel officers should just walk up and tase someone who asked why they got pulled over, but I also don't feel that a citizen who gets pulled over should automatically get defense and be aggressive in that defense because they believe they did nothing wrong. That is for the court to decide should you object. Attempting to fight a traffic citation roadside is county productive,IMHO, because you ending up looking as bad as the officer if there is some irate smartass on camera.

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Sirusblk

Living out of fear does not create respect. Where the hell did you get that god awful idea? Have you ever seen a suppressed society? They hate their oppressors and will fight back with tooth and nail.

If you're pulled over you have a right to know why.

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tHa_KhAn

I think you missed the original part of the discussion where fear came into it. We were discussing how career criminals in my area resisted less and were more respectful when dealing with Sheriff's deputies who had tasers and were known to use them and the local police who did not. It was agreed that it was fear of the taser that created better behavior from the criminal element, once caught or being questioned. I was not suggesting the entire society live in some fear.

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mentholated

Personally, I would've walked off of the plane and just wandered around until I found fresh air again. Though that might be on the run way, and then I might actually be shot. Y'know, russian guy on runway = terrorism.

But I'm not that guy, obviously. I'm still alive.

I think you did hit the nail on the head when you hinted at throwing the entire justice system out of the window. That is exactly what I would do. It simply doesn't work. It never worked. Sure, it catches a lot of criminals, but its like an antibiotic. It kills the good bacteria too.

I can't think up any superior justice system to this one but I can think of one possible preventative measure:

monthly psychological evaluations for anyone given more responsibility than a ball point pen.

CingularDuality

Great, now we're back to:
Law Enforcement agencies are having a hard enough time recruiting qualified officers as it is. Now you're proposing monthly head shrinkings? Hell, I've never even heard of any police agency that has monthly use of force or firearms qualifications... These things cost money and our society just isn't willing to pay for some of the most important civil servants (but the Dallas Cowboys can charge $150,000.00 to folks that want season tickets!).

I'll ask you a question: When police agencies' starting salary falls below the level required for well qualified candidates to want to put their life on the line to protect complete strangers, who do you think will still want to be a cop? I'll tell you what I think: I think it'll be two types of people, those for which it is a calling, that want to serve their fellow citizen, and those that crave power, and are probably QUITE likely to abuse it.

There is a web forum for my job position that lets current and prospective agents talk about all kinds of different things. We get LOTS of questions from prospects inquiring about our job. What do you think the most common question is? I'll give you a hint: What kind of gun will I be issued? Can I carry off duty? Can I fly while armed? Can a local cop bust me for carrying concealed? Will I really not need a Concealed Handgun License? Nobody asks about handcuffs or batons or OC spray or any of the other tools that we use much more commonly. Nobody asks about what model vehicles we drive. Sure, guns are cool, and a curious question doesn't necessarily mean that they want the job just to carry a gun, but the trend does worry me a bit. I don't know what my point is here, but, ummm, well, there you go.

Anyway, psych evals would be cool if cops salaries were a bit more reasonable for the work they do. I'm not sure if you've ever been on a police ride along, but it'll open your eyes. Cops routinely are involved in fights, their lives are threatened, they're exposed to urine, feces and blood, they work long shifts at odd hours, are usually required to be on call without pay 24/7, must be able to write affidavits and speak in front of an audience (jury), need to be able to think quickly to defuse verbal confrontations, are forced to chase people on foot while wearing ten pounds of equipment around their waist, and then are abused by an ignorant media (and public) regardless of the justness of their actions. And yet an IT nerd that sits on his ass and thinks about things should make more? A baseball player? A guitar player? Look, I'm all about capitalism, but if anything in the world makes me think socialist thoughts, it's the fact that schoolteachers, soldiers, cops and paramedics make a fraction of what entertainers in our country get paid. Not that I want to take anything away from those entertainers, but that I think it's a sad commentary on our society that our civil servants are paid so little. And that low pay has a MASSIVE impact on the quality of service we receive from these vital jobs.

Fenix is wrong about professionalism being something that people can just decide to have. When you have someone arguing with you about why he needs to give you his driver's license, and you're trying to keep an eye on the passenger in the vehicle, while watching the driver's hands at all times, after just having had a gun pulled on you by another guy that was dressed respectably just like this guy, after being told that backup is ten minutes away and realizing that the guy you're arguing with is a different color minority than you, so you have to treat him with kid gloves regardless of how professional you are, while remembering that your sergeant told you that a car matching this description was involved in a series of armed snatch and grab robberies about a mile away and you still haven't had a chance to eat breakfast and it's noon already. That's a lot of stuff to process and it's not something that just anybody can do all at once. It requires training and experience to handle such situations. That's why you see such a difference between your average joe and a new cop, or between a rookie cop and a veteran street officer. Don't discount the necessity and value of training to keep these officers from making errors in judgment like this Austin tasing.

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mentholated

Now I understand why things are the way they are. Look, to put it frankly, if you're giving anyone a badge and a gun I don't care how much money the city has to spend, (but it sure as hell better not be from MY taxes [yes, I want my cake and I plan to eat it too, and if it doesn't taste good to me I'll regurgitate it on your shoes]) their head better be shrink wrapped tighter than the replacement parts for Michael Jackson's face.

Exactly like you said, when the salary stops dropping I think there will be two kinds of people with badges and guns:

those who enjoy their power,
and those who need to provide for their family and can't afford to get another job and/or enjoy protecting complete strangers.

You know I'm glad you brought up the salary topic. Its a very interesting subject that I enjoy discussing. I know this may get me burned at the stake, but I'll say it.. because I feel like it. What is the thing that separates the cop, teacher, healer, and garbage man? The cop and the soldier are the ones who take something away. The garbage men, well ok, if you want to be picky, these take stuff away too.. but this stuff doesn't just disappear. The lives the cops and soldiers take do. So I can see why they should be paid a lot. Wait, no.. I don't. Infact, I don't think they should be paid a damn thing. I think anyone wanting to put their life on the line better want to do it out of the kindness of their own heart, because if you think for a second that anyone who decides to be a killer can go to school and get a badge, and a gun, and go on the streets and effectively drawing the line between right and wrong at their own disclosure with the barrel of their colt, you're dead wrong. There is a thing that separates the "criminal" from the soldier, the cop, and the killer. They're all guilty of killing their own. But the criminal hasn't been convicted yet, hes only a suspect.

Yeah, I don't think cops should be paid anything. If there were no money involved you'd get only two people, psychopaths and ex soldiers. Most of the psychopaths would be removed from duty quickly, because they'd go crazy as soon as they served their second shift. They wouldn't do it on their first shift, because they'd be in awe of how they managed to get through their psyche evals and actually get the job. They'd be cocky on their second shift, and probably tired, too. Thats when they'd blow away that guy who didn't drop the nail file he was "holding for his girlfriend" and looked kinda suspicious, with that sniffle. He was DEFINITELY high. On PCP AND meth. Yeah, that cop, she made detective two years later. Employee of the month four times in a row. Got a lot of psyche evals though, I wonder why that was?

There'd also be a lot of hard core patriots unable to deal with life as a citizen. They probably wouldn't kill anyone in cold blood, they'd strictly be following orders and doing as they are told. And after seeing what war is like, something I personally can't imagine just yet, they'd probably not want to kill anyone ever again. But "this is a war, and war means killing," as they say.

And, there also, just maybe might be some cops there that are simply doing it out of the kindness of their own heart. Actually doing it because they know someone has to, and even though it drives them crazy, they still do it because they know they're helping people and they are saving lives. They're taking them, too, though.. and that probably eats them up inside sometimes.

Yeah, I can see why they should be paid more, and not given monthly combat training and psychological evaluations. It makes sense to me now.

Maybe the money saved from eliminating the salaries of our armed forces can help cure insanity.

Tarenth