Santa

My parents didn't do too much spanking unless i really screwed up, but instead--somehow--made me not want to dissapoint them. I have no idea how they instilled that in me and the rest of my siblings, but it seems to have worked. Well at least for my siblings. Jurys still out on me

MDFubar

Ok, This is just such a ridicluous area! Fisrt, depending on the state you live in, spanking a child with an open hand between the knee and the waist is allowed.....anywhere else is "child abuse". One of the first things they teach a child in school is the telephone number for the child abuse hot-line. So, they don't need to be in your house.
There have been quite a few cases of children falsely reporting abuse to get back at thier parents. This is just another open door for a lack of discipline.
As far as how effective corporal punishment is, which is what Mass. is outlawing for people under the age of 18. When I was growing up and I did something that was deserving, I got spanked.......usually didn't do it again. Touch a hot stove as a child.....probably won't do that again.
When I was married and had step children, they where young, I established rules that they came to understand and violating certain rules meant that they got spanked. Very rarely did they cross that line after the first time.
Keep in mind that pain is a natural deterent for almost all form of life. I do not condone child abuse, excessive beatings, hitting in that face, but I do believe that we have become to lax with the younger generations. Children have no idea about punishment, losing, not being good enough to do a certain activity, and therefore have no reason to try and better themselves.
I manage a business and you would be suprised how many appplicants come in and can't read, write, or do simple math.........they where not left behind, just promoted so they wouldn't feel bad.
The law they are trying to pass is just plain stupid, often makes you wonder if they are not just passing laws to say they did something.

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ScratchMonkey

To quote Elizabeth Barrett Browning (1806-1861):

ScratchMonkey

BTW, does this law mean that the BoFH will no longer be able to use the clue-by-four?

http://catb.org/jargon/html/C/clue-by-four.html

Alas, bofh.com is down, so I can't tell what this looks like, but I see the text in the Google cache:

http://www.bofh.com/store/cluebyfour.html

Hambergler

This law is inappropriate because it doesn't address the real issue of incompetent parenting. I think there needs to be a mandatory class and licensure before one can have a kid. Of couse it's not 100% enforceable, but maybe they can make it where you don't get your child tax credit before you get your license. I've worked in Hospitals and you would be shocked at who they let babies go home with.

I don't believe in spanking kids, and I don't believe they hear you better when you scream at them.

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tHa_KhAn

The people that beat their kids at an abusive level are still going to abuse their kids. Parents who are good parents use spanking without abusing their children, will become criminals.

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RedForman

That's the problem with a lot of laws limiting behavior- like gun control for instance, in most cases it hurts law-abiding people while not affecting criminals, because they're already criminals to begin with and have no qualms about what they do...

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"I've been working since I was sixteen. I fought two in wars. Hell, I've killed people. I'm not saying that I didn't enjoy it..."
-- Red Forman

|TG-Irr|RedForman

MDFubar

Amen Red!

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tHa_KhAn

lol...I was going to cite gun control as a similar issue but I figured that would derail this thread way to fast. At least with gun control, there might be a reduction on some of the accidents(like that guy who's dog hit his load pistol off the table and shot him) however the spanking ban would not stop one single case of real abuse.

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ScratchMonkey

That's genius. It's exactly the carrot that the Feds use to force laws on the States (like the 55 MPH law tied to highway funding).

WhiskeySix

Spanking has a time and place. The most important thing, IMO, is that it's not 'reactionary'... i.e. you're not hitting them cause your heated about what they did. It should be an 'unfortunate' consequence of breaking some rules.

For my 4 yr old, we have but two rules: obey us and don't lie. If you break one of those rules, there's a "punishment": I take him into his room, sit him on my lap, and ask what he thinks he did wrong. I then ask what happens when he does that. (It's about this time he starts to cry.) I then explain that I'm sad/disappointed because I love him and hate having to punish him... but that those are the rules and I have to. I then give him one solid smack on the butt, followed by a big hug and kiss and let him know "it's over now, go play".

Fortunately he's pretty quick on the up-take, so I've only had to do that maybe 3-4 times... he understands that there are consequences to his actions and all I have to do is give him a look and he knows he's in dangerous water and better shape up. My wife thinks it's funny, but I always equate it to training a dog. You have to be consistent, fair, they have to know who's in charge (where they fit in the pack), and that challenging your authority is a really terrible idea.


With my 15mo old, it's not really "spanking" (since I can't explain to him what he does wrong yet), but he does get smacked... though only in one very specific case: when he's touching something he's not supposed to (stereo, fishbowl, light socket, etc).

When he touches something he shouldn't, I first say "Don't touch" in a rather gruff voice, and give a hand signal (flat 'stop' hand in front of what we don't want him to touch) to make it clear. At first he would smile and touch it again. So I'd grab his wrist, say "Don't touch!" in my deep-scary voice, and then smack the back of his hand.

Now he's got it down. And knows what that saying and tone of voice means. Yesterday, my wife took the kids to a friends house and Noah (the little one) went to touch their Christmas tree. She saw it and said "Don't touch!" from across the room; he stopped, turned and looked at her, and then toddled off into the other room. She came home beaming since I guess the other mom couldn't believe how well behaved our kids were.


anyway... I think it'd be a really stupid move to pass this law.

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MDFubar

Pretty good Whiskey, that stereo can be prety dangerous......just kidding, I used to also use writing as a punishment when they got older. Never have them write "I will not .......", rather have them write the positive "I will........."
I would have them write "I will always tell the truth" a few hundred times vs " I will not lie". Seemed to work pretty well. The punishments where in stages depending on what they did, going from a 5 minute time-out to grounding......then sentences......if need be the dreaded spanking. Children are smarter than many think, start teaching them values and structure as early as you can and always rewardf good behavior, even it it is only acknowledgement or a hug.

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Axis of Eeevil

Couldn't have said it better, W6. How, when and why all have to be done in love, for appropriate reasons and commensurate with the action the child has done.

To add to this, I'll share what I learned in a parenting class I took, not because I was required to, but because I wanted to learn more tools--it was not expensive, subsidized by the county, and really gave a good framework for figuring out the how, when and why of consequences for bad behavior.

If we imagine a pyramid representing the frequency with which a guiding technique is used, spanking is at the very top--used rarely and only for very specific reasons. I'll try and type out a representation of the other techniques. This comes from the very good book The Incredible Years, by Carolyn Webster-Stratton. This is to parenting as "5 Love Languages" is to marriage, I think, Whiskey.

If parents use these techniques, spanking becomes a rarity. This works, I stuck to the program, made myself stick with it, and what a difference.



And ALWAYS: BE CONSISTENT. Don't make a rule you are not going to enforce, don't truly believe in, or won't follow yourself. Nothing shatters a child's trust, belief and reliance on an otherwise-loving parent faster than inconsistency. Yeah that's opinion, no psych articles to cite, sorry.

Oh, by the way, Hambergler: do you have children? If so, what is your parenting style, and how's it working with no spankings at all? Really curious to know what you have to do instead of spanking to deal with the really big important issues. If you have children, that is.

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WhiskeySix

You obviously don't know how painfully loud my stereo can be


Exactly.

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TheFeniX

Who determines the criteria for how to raise your children? Are we talking a generic "rules to raise by" pamphlete, or something dictating exactly how to handle the infinite number of confrontations a parent will have with their child?

Who floats the cost of this class system and how do you judge a passing grade?

I look at this the same way I look at the defensive driving classes. I took something away from the first time I went to DD. I'm a massive exception. Most people gloss over the text, pick the answers, and go along to create more chaos on the highways.

We even have the benefit of a driver's license system and you needing a 2000 lbs. killing machine to be able to drive and we can't curb the deaths and general stupidity out on the "killing fields" of the American highway system.

Now we're going to attempt government regulation of something that two kids in a dark bedroom sans condom can accomplish in a few minutes?

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