ScratchMonkey

W6, you just described how I discipline my cat. Seriously. As a result, she's well-behaved, doesn't chew on wires, and generally doesn't get into things she shouldn't. (And I try to keep the temptations behind closed doors she can't open.)

One would hope that a human toddler would be as smart as my cat.

Hambergler

In some places you need a license/training to cut hair, but the most important job in a persons life there is no required education? How ridiculous! Maybe this is the wrong thread for this argument because everyone is already pissed about the spanking law. Which I think it rubbish also by the way. And I don't expect the highly functioning populous of TG to sympathize with what I have seen in the neonatal units. I'm sure most people here can raise a halfway decent kid. I'm talking about all the horrible neglect and abuse I have seen, most of it is not done out of malice, most of it can be attributed to lack of education. In the law concerning the spanking, the government is using force to try and make people better parents. They don't need force they need education. Maybe forced education.

I don't have kids, but I if I ever do. I will use all my power to teach them without spankings or spray bottles (just kidding). I don't have any experience, I don't know how I'm going to do it. I see spanking as a type of short cut in getting their respect. I would like to think I can put a child under a spell of discipline verbally/mentally. If I do end up spanking them it will be because I couldn't see any other way.

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Ferris Bueller

Theres nothing wrong with spanking if its administered appropriately. First off, the parent has to realize that theyre WAY more powerful and have a real possibility of hurting the kid if done wrong. But if done correctly, it becomes an effective tool.

I was spanked as a kid. Never with a belt or any other object. I was spanked with a bare hand over my pants. My dad didnt spank me hard, just enough to make it lightly sting. But it was a deterrant, and the fear factor made it worse. See, the only thing I got spanked for was lying. If I lied, it was an automatic 3 swats when I got caught. Anything else got me restricted to my room or the house or the yard depending on how severe it was. But the way my dad did it was genius. He'd catch me, then make me go wait in the bathroom alone for like 4 or 5 minutes. First off, when you know you're in trouble as a kid, thats bad enough. But the agony of waiting 5 minutes when you know whats coming is the killer. He could have pulled his hand an inch short of my butt and it still would have hurt like hell. Honest to god, the fear and agonizing wait made the pain 10x worse.

But he never actually hurt me. 5 minutes later, I didnt feel a thing. I never got spanked hard enough that I couldnt sit down. I was never hit any other time. But you know what, I learned not to lie to my parents REALLY quick. Of course, that all went away when I was too old to spank and had since learned how to not get caught.

People making these laws are only seeing one side. They see the abuse cases. The dads and moms who smack their kids into walls and call it "spanking". The kids who show up to school with belt bruises on their legs. They dont hear about kids like me who got no ill-treatment out of the experience. Am I glad I got spanked? Hell yes. It was an amazing deterrent and taught me the meaning of the truth. Will I spank my kids? You better believe it. I've seen way too many spoiled kids who do whatever they want because the worst thing that ever happens to them is they get yelled at, if that. Every kid I know who ever got spanked had the fear of god in them when they did something wrong, and they were generally better behaved on the whole because they knew what was coming if they didnt.

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|TG-6th|Ferris Bueller

Bommando

As long as I can still use a Taser on kids, I'm happy.

UnDeaD77

I cannot stand those people that always see you in public giving your kid a spanking, and they threaten to call CPS on you. I really just want to reach out and slap them.

Texas law Oh god, its just such a easy angle to kill a buffalo though! So I guess I've gotta do it from the first floor of the Motel building.

That one is just for Dallas.

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Ferris Bueller

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|TG-6th|Ferris Bueller

Axis of Eeevil

Hambergler, I see your points. I live next door to an abusive, dysfunctional, drug-using alcoholic woman who has almost zero parenting skills. I've called the police twice when I felt very concerned for the safety and wellbeing of her 5 children. She's under investigation, and has 50% custody time. And a very vigilant neighbor who is not afraid to knock on her door and suggest she take a break from screaming profanities at her children and have a smoke to cool off a bit.

My wife has worked in the social services for several years and has a degree in sociology/human services. My Aunt was wrongly investigated by protective services when her 6 year-old daughter told her teacher that her daddy had "hammered her leg" to see what would happen. I live in Oregon, a state where child abuse, child hunger, poverty-level incomes and methamphetamine use is rampant, and the state budget is a mess. Child Protective Services workers have case loads 8-12 times what they should be, and investigations are cursory, often inconclusive and result in a very high rate of 'delayed findings', ie "oops, we found out later the parents we said were OK were really, really not".

All this is to say I am by no means unfamiliar with the problems of parents having little to no idea of what they're getting into, or how hard it is to be a nurturing, patient, rational person when that little brat just tipped over all the houseplants for the third time this week!!!! I haven't slept more than 5 hours in the last 3 days! AAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGGGGGGHHHH!

Point 1: It takes people who do know how to be friendly, be neighborly as possible, and pass along what they know, both to the kids and the parents. We need to be protectors of kids and defenders of parents, but protectors first. We need to not be afraid to walk up to someone in public who's getting out of hand with their child, and say "Hey, I know you're feeling really frustrated, and I can see why. But you're acting in a way that isn't acceptable, and you need to stop. If you can't make yourself stop, I will need to do something about it."

At the same time, we need to mind our own business, let people deal with their lives how they see fit, even if we disagree or dislike it, as long as there is not serious harm being done. Yelling at a crying child does not constitute a crime or abuse, it's just really bad behavior. Not my business. Yelling profanities loud enough that others, including my kids, have to hear it? That's my business. Slapping your kid's leg for begging in the supermarket? Not my business. Grabbing your kid's clothing, putting your face in theirs and threatening them in a furious tone of voice? Very borderline. Psychological abuse is so damaging, and yet very hard to draw a line between black and white. If I saw a man slapping a child repeatedly, I would be going for my cellphone, and be ready to get in the way, come what may. That's easier.

We (citizens, community members) can't be policemen, but we can be there making sure our neighbors, friends and acquaintances know that we expect them to follow the terms of the social contract we all have with each other. We need to feel safe, parents need to know that other parents care about what goes on--that any kid in the neighborhood could knock on another parent's door and find help if they needed it. Fear of what dark soul may be lurking in the houses around us isolates us, makes us fearful, and allows people like that to slip in without being noticed. We need to know our neighbors, not necessarily be friends. We need to support each other when we can.

I don't like my neighbor. I think she's a bad parent. She's got a nasty temper, a foul mouth, and a lot of challenges to overcome. She also loves her kids very much, wants to be a better parent but is not sure how, and is struggling to make a better life for herself. I'm rooting for her all the way to make it! But I wouldn't hesitate to call the police the minute I thought she was abusing her kids. I only have to write one more incident report, and she would be out of my neighborhood. And that would be nice for me and my family. I need to make sure I'm not the person who breaks her spirit and she gives up because I was too impatient to let her work through her problems and reach her goals. It's a hard balance, but one we can all at least strive to achieve in our communities. I think it's the TG way.

Point 2: Let me give you an example of a time when I saw fit to give my younger son, 8 at the time, one hell of a spanking. We live near the Oregon coast, and my mom likes to take the boys to the seashore in the Summer. Waves are 2-3 ft. at most, beaches slope gently with a little undertow, and the kids like to wade out a bit. Now this is an emergent coastline, not like the east coast where you can walk out 25 feet and still be to your knees. 25 feet out and an adult can be in 12 feet of water with a wicked current about 9 feet down.

Nana had the boys, and had the safety talk about how far from her they can go, and why, and how deep they can go in the water, and why, everyone knows the rules. Now she was resting in the dry sand, about 20 feet from the water, watching the kids. My 8 year-old starts with just his feet, you know, running back and forth, getting wetter, then a little deeper, and so on.

When he got to waist level, she called to him to stop there. He didn't. She called louder, making sure he heard. He turned, hesitated, and went a little deeper. Now she's scared. This is where the individual child comes in. This kid has a will of iron. It works to his advantage with his big brother, and in many situations, but he also has a careless dangerstreak that pushes him right to the edge and keeps his guardian angel on his toes, so to speak. He thinks he can change reality by an act of will. He truly does. It's frightening.

Now Nana knows this, and gets right down to the water and lets him know he's going to be in trouble if he doesn't come back. He doesn't come back and goes even deeper--almost to his little neck. He's about 15 feet away from the shore, where the riptide begins. He won't come back. Now my mom is about to cry. She's fighting cancer, and is simply too weak to swim. She wouldn't be able to save him. He can't swim, neither can his brother. The beach is almost empty because its a couple hundred miles long, and all public. People tend to spread out. They also tend to drown. A lot of them. Every year.

Now he starts to come back into shallower water, teasing her, then goes back out again, showing off. His lips are blue and he's chattering with cold, going into hypothermia. Soon his muscles will start to sieze. Nana was a lifeguard for years, she knows the signs of impending disaster. It's like a nightmare. She's trying to keep it cool, not be too threatening so he doesn't get scared, but she's really had enough and is about to try and swim out to him when he finally starts coming back--slowly. He's not smiling or jumping any more, just shivering, with a glassy look in his eyes. He makes it to the shore. He can't walk normally, he's too cold.

He almost died that day, though he doesn't know it--he dried off, lay in the sun, and then ran off to climb the dune cliffs, eating cookies. My mom was furious. She was so scared--she could have lost him. She told me she would not take him to the beach again that Summer. She gave him a heck of a spanking when they got back to the car, and although I didn't like the idea, I knew how she gave spankings--boy do I--and she does it right, with hugs and talk and in a way that hurts a lot but is very non-traumatic--she uses a chopstick with a little flick of the wrist, like shaking down a thermometer. Yowch.

For his stubbornness, for his willful disobedience, for putting his life in danger, and being completely unapologetic, with no sign of taking it seriously during the long talk that ensued that night, what would you feel, Hambergler, would make the proper impression?

This is in part a rhetorical question, because without a child, you just can't know how horrible the realization is that your son came very close to killing himself because he decided to be disobedient and disrespectful to the adult taking care of him. I'm not putting this out there to say "see, ham doesn't know what he's talking about", but to say "Dude, you just won't know until you've been there". Sorry, I know it doesn't leave much room for logical argument.

There is a time when to spare the rod could most certainly spoil the child. The question is not whether, but when and how, and the issue is not should we?, but will we? You will know it is time to spank your child when there is a part of you that is searching for any other way, anything but that, because they said they're sorry, and they're looking at you with tears in their eyes, and they love you. And even then there is the certainty that you must do this for their benefit, so they understand the pain of the consequences for doing something that, unchecked, with hurt them and the ones around them with a pain and injury far greater than the small, fleeting one you administer today. It's not just the right thing to do sometimes. Sometimes, it's the only right thing there is to do.

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TheFeniX

There's a difference (although not much depending on the age of the human) between conditioning an animal to avoid "bad" behavior and teaching a toddler the difference between what is acceptable or not.

A domesticated animal will never understand exactly why chewing on wires is associated with pain, only that it is, so it will avoid wires.

I could teach my dog through consistency that it's "good" to defecate indoors and not outdoors and he would never notice the difference. He'll never put two and two together if he sees another dog crapping outdoors. That's how conditioning works.

Police dogs do not care about finding drugs to catch the "bad guys." This concept would be completely alien to them. Same with bloodhounds. They only know that by finding the source of the specific scent they've been given, they get a treat. So it's good, and they do it.

Teaching on the other hand is a much more difficult concept. Someone brought up consistency, and that's an important part of conditioning and teaching, much more for teaching. Condition an animal long enough, and you can afford to lose your consistency, because let face it: Dogs and cats are fairly smart for animals, but they aren't that smart. Humans pick up on inconstancy quickly. It's like a red flag for them, a loop-hole to be exploited.

Now we're onto children: they're smart little bastards. A lot smarter than people give them credit for. While you're trying to learn to control them, they're learning how to work you over for a sap. If you don't believe me, really think back to when you were younger and you pulled a fast one on your parents. Feels good when you think about it doesn't it?

I got my Golden Retriever because either me or my sister needed to cry to sucker my mom into caving. My sister wouldn't do it. I learned to cry on demand early in life to keep my brother off me (being 10 years older than me, fighting wasn't really an option). A few tears and sniffles, and we were in the car off to pick out a dog.

Hey, I'm not proud about it, but I do love my dog.

There is no panacea for child rearing right now and I doubt they'll ever be. I'm not sure if I'll ever need to pop my kids, but it would sure be nice to not have to worry about CPS hauling them off if I chose to. I really think the problem is that everyone is afraid of kids now. Well, at least afraid in doing anything to them.

Schools are having serious problems with lawsuits and inane rules that accomplish nothing. Parents don't like to admit their kid isn't this little piece of pure heaven. And outside observers are afraid to get involved for any reason. Kids are smart, they pick up on this.

I think this is just another example of society trying to evolve faster than it really should. I'm not big on corporal punishment, but I do understand that a person learns fire is dangerous, not by being told by another person, but by sticking his hand in it and feeling the pain.

How does that saying go?: "Tell a man there's an infinite amount of stars in the universe and he'll believe you. Show a man a wet paint sign and he'll have to touch the wall to make sure."

Hmmm, maybe we aren't much smarter than animals.

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ScratchMonkey

FeniX's post reminds me of the South Park episode in which all the parents are taken away after the kids accuse them of "molestering" them. The kids are left to fend for themselves in an otherwise empty town. (The episode ultimately turns into a spoof of the classic Star Trek episode "Miri", with elements from Logan's Run, and I think also Lord of the Flies.)

RedForman

It's amazing how well South Park discusses such issues. Anybody who passes it off as just a crazy, violent show should certainly take a closer look. It certainly has a lot of cultural value.

Then again maybe I'm just nuts.

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"I've been working since I was sixteen. I fought two in wars. Hell, I've killed people. I'm not saying that I didn't enjoy it..."
-- Red Forman

|TG-Irr|RedForman

Rincewind

Just punch them in the face instead. It looks like being in a brawl will land you less time than spanking. ;D


EDIT: I'll add that after reading the thread, there's some great advice here.

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