I am a Swing Voter. Sway me! - Page 10

**leejo** · 11-04-2004, 09:02 PM

I just dug up my crusty old copy of Democracy in America.

de Toqueville sez:

In the United States religion exercises but little influence upon the laws and upon the details of public opinion; but it directs the customs of the community, and, by regulating domestic life, it regulates the state.

...There is certainly no country in the world where the tie of marriage is more respected than in America or where conjugal happiness is more highly or worthily appreciated.

...Religion in America takes no direct part in the government of society, but it must be regarded as the first of their political institutions; for if it does not impart a taste for freedom, it facilitates the use of it.

...Despotism may govern without faith, but liberty cannot. Religion is much more necessary in the republic which they set forth in glowing colors than in the monarchy which they attack; it is more needed in democratic republics than in any others. How is it possible that society should escape destruction if the moral tie is not strengthened in proportion as the political tie is relaxed? And what can be done with a people who are their own masters if they are not submissive to the Diety?

...Religions intimitaly united with the governments of the earth have been know to exercise sovereign power founded on terror and faith; but when a religion contracts an alliance of this nature, I do not hesitate to affirm that it commits the same error as a man who should sacrifice his future for his present welfare; and in obtaining a power to which it has no claim, it risks that authority which is rightfully its own.

...Religion perceives that civil liberty affords a noble exercise to the faculties of man and that the political world is a field prepared by the Creator for the efforts of mind. Free and powerful in its own sphere, satisfied with the place reserved for it, religion never more surely establishes its empire than when it reigns in the hearts of men unsupported by aught besides its native strengths.

Liberty regards religion as its compainion in all its battles and its triumphs, as the cradle of its infancy and the divine source of its claims. It considers religion as the safeguard of morality, and morality as the best security of law and the surest pledge of the duration of freedom.

**CingularDuality** · 11-04-2004, 09:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by =DdogG=

anything that makes me uncomfortable talking about religion is forcing non-religion on me.

Would you care to expound on this statement a bit more? I find it extremely ridiculous as it stands.

**_Ender_** · 11-04-2004, 10:17 PM

Marriage is more respect in America then any where else? HAHA! Thats why America has the highest divorce rate.

**luna** · 11-04-2004, 10:27 PM

It isn't the non-religious who are making Christmas break "Winter break" and all of that. Speaking on behalf of that portion of the populus, we don't care what you call it, as long as it equates to a week off.

Again, if we MUST turn to point fingers, let's take a look at OTHER religions that have an issue with the whole Christian characterization of the holidays. There's Hannukah, Quanzaa and the Solstice all in a similar time frame. Unless you'd rather call it "Christmas/Hannukah/Quanzaa/Solstice break", which frankly, I don't ever want to have to type again, you're going to see the general populus saying "Winter Break". It has nothing to do with not wanting religion around us- it's that every religion wants recognition.

As for gay folks being involved in the no religion issue, I dispute that heartily. Removing "under god" from the pledge has nothing to do with sexual preference. I also never said that christians alone were interferring with gay rights, although on the whole, it would be nice to see more tolerance from that section of the population.

**leejo** · 11-04-2004, 10:41 PM

tolerance like ordaining a bishop as the episcopal church recently did?

Granted, it wasn't a unanimous thing, but try to appoint a federal judge and see how easy that is.

Nightfire · 11-04-2004, 11:35 PM

i'm lost...i lost track ever since _Ender_'s last quote:

Quote:

Originally Posted by _Ender_

So its the non-religious people's fault that Xmas is now a joke? Please... Besides, everybody knows that Christians stole those holidays off the Pagans anyway. So please stop with the "Those non-religious bastards are stealing our holidays away from us" when the truth is, those holidays were stolen a long time ago from the Pagans.

Why would you talk about your religion to a bunch of people who arent religious to begin with? I personally dont care what religion anybody is. If you want to talk about it, fine, but just dont talk about it to me, because I could really careless.

As for the 10 Commandments being the basis of the US Constitution. The only thing those two documents have in common is that they're both man made. Being as how some of the key founders were Deists (With the others being Christians), you must ask yourself "Why would Deists agree to having Christians rules dictate their Government?" Hell just read the Bill of Rights. Six of the ten Commandments go directly against the Bill of Rights.

So please, enlighten us as to why you think the US Constitution was based off the 10 Commandments. Other then 2 (4 if you really stretch it), there is no basis for your theory of it.

**CingularDuality** · 11-05-2004, 07:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nightfire

i'm lost...i lost track ever since _Ender_'s last quote:

Yeah, that was a good one, huh? Let us know when you find the track, 'cause I really want to hear your opinions on this new sidetracked topic.

**=DdogG=** · 11-05-2004, 08:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CingularDuality

Would you care to expound on this statement a bit more? I find it extremely ridiculous as it stands.

making a person feel intimidated in any way shape form of fashion for thier beliefs, lifestyle, ethnicity, or gender is unlawful. it is called harrassment and discrimination. If one feels intimidated bringing up a religious topic, then they are effectively silenced through fear. Thus my point of forcing conformation to the reverse belief by forcing the silence of those who oppose. Just because you strongarm cooperation, doesnt make those whom are subjugated agree with you.

In the early part of the 20th century, African-Americans, though free, were scared into submission and robbed of liberties at the hand of those who would silence them. there was no law in the United States Federal Judicial system than said a Black man suspected of disrespecting a white woman was to be linched........ it still happened. Black men and women lived in fear of upsetting a white person, thus followed humiliating, unlawful rules set forth by bigotted men who could control a local government.

telling me that it is ridiculous to say that intimidation forcing silence is not also forcing the opposite value system is a weak argument. It is proven throughout history.

**leejo** · 11-05-2004, 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CingularDuality

Yeah, that was a good one, huh? Let us know when you find the track, 'cause I really want to hear your opinions on this new sidetracked topic.

Technically, isn't it time to put this thread to bed? Is anyone trying to sway votes at this point?

**=DdogG=** · 11-05-2004, 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by _Ender_

So its the non-religious people's fault that Xmas is now a joke? Please... Besides, everybody knows that Christians stole those holidays off the Pagans anyway. So please stop with the "Those non-religious bastards are stealing our holidays away from us" when the truth is, those holidays were stolen a long time ago from the Pagans.

thank you for enlightening me here.... I though the birth of Jesus started CHRIST-mas..........

Quote:

Originally Posted by _Ender_

Why would you talk about your religion to a bunch of people who arent religious to begin with? I personally dont care what religion anybody is. If you want to talk about it, fine, but just dont talk about it to me, because I could really careless.

I should be allowed to discuss any topic I please without fear of retaliation. Why would you want to talk to a bunch of non pagans about paganism? I dont care about pagans and yet you keep talking to me about them.... the difference is, I dont complain about every pagan referring comment you make like people do when they hear a religious comment.... see, you dont have the reservations that I do because when I say God, 10 posts pop up berating me..... I dont see that about a pagan post.....

Quote:

Originally Posted by _Ender_

As for the 10 Commandments being the basis of the US Constitution. The only thing those two documents have in common is that they're both man made. Being as how some of the key founders were Deists (With the others being Christians), you must ask yourself "Why would Deists agree to having Christians rules dictate their Government?" Hell just read the Bill of Rights. Six of the ten Commandments go directly against the Bill of Rights.

first which 6?

second......

Quote:

Originally Posted by _Ender_

So please, enlighten us as to why you think the US Constitution was based off the 10 Commandments. Other then 2 (4 if you really stretch it), there is no basis for your theory of it.

the bill of rights is only the part of the constitution ensuring a persons rights against acts of tyrrany....

1. I am the Lord thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.

sounds like a basic declaration of freedom there.............

2. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

isnt there something about heirecy and traitors in the constitution.... I mean, we do say a "Pledge of Allegiance", don't we?
It also rings of "In God we Trust" doesn't it?

3. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain: for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

this one might be a little hard to prosecute...... but the constitution doesnt go against it.......

4. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

This is basically the labor clause.... employees have the right to a day off....

5. Honor thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.

this is the 18th birthday thing in a near eastern ancient form.... your are a minor and subject to your parents until you yourself are an adult.

6. Thou shalt not kill.

pretty much a direct quote there.....

7. Thou shalt not commit adultery.

well, this one will get you divorced, but not really a law...

8. Thou shalt not steal.

another direct quote.....

9. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.

purgery..... obstruction of justice......

10. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbor's.

again, not a law, but it will keep you out of debt..........

so exactly what part of the 10 commandments goes against the constitution?

which parts of the constition directly oppose the 10 commandments?

I see parallels. I see a lot of the ideas in the constitution in the 10 commandments..... maybe both are just the right way to go on their own and have nothing to do with each other, but following the 10 commandments will not only keep you out of legal trouble, it will also keep you out of relational ones as well.

**CingularDuality** · 11-05-2004, 09:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leejo

Technically, isn't it time to put this thread to bed?

Yeah, I think if anyone wants to discuss this new topic further, it should be in a new thread.

11-04-2004, 09:02 PM	#136 (permalink)
leejo Join Date: Sep 2003 Age: 39 Posts: 7,839	Re: I am a Swing Voter. Sway me! I just dug up my crusty old copy of Democracy in America. de Toqueville sez: In the United States religion exercises but little influence upon the laws and upon the details of public opinion; but it directs the customs of the community, and, by regulating domestic life, it regulates the state. ...There is certainly no country in the world where the tie of marriage is more respected than in America or where conjugal happiness is more highly or worthily appreciated. ...Religion in America takes no direct part in the government of society, but it must be regarded as the first of their political institutions; for if it does not impart a taste for freedom, it facilitates the use of it. ...Despotism may govern without faith, but liberty cannot. Religion is much more necessary in the republic which they set forth in glowing colors than in the monarchy which they attack; it is more needed in democratic republics than in any others. How is it possible that society should escape destruction if the moral tie is not strengthened in proportion as the political tie is relaxed? And what can be done with a people who are their own masters if they are not submissive to the Diety? ...Religions intimitaly united with the governments of the earth have been know to exercise sovereign power founded on terror and faith; but when a religion contracts an alliance of this nature, I do not hesitate to affirm that it commits the same error as a man who should sacrifice his future for his present welfare; and in obtaining a power to which it has no claim, it risks that authority which is rightfully its own. ...Religion perceives that civil liberty affords a noble exercise to the faculties of man and that the political world is a field prepared by the Creator for the efforts of mind. Free and powerful in its own sphere, satisfied with the place reserved for it, religion never more surely establishes its empire than when it reigns in the hearts of men unsupported by aught besides its native strengths. Liberty regards religion as its compainion in all its battles and its triumphs, as the cradle of its infancy and the divine source of its claims. It considers religion as the safeguard of morality, and morality as the best security of law and the surest pledge of the duration of freedom.

11-04-2004, 10:17 PM	#138 (permalink)
_Ender_ Join Date: May 2003 Location: I am lost, if you know where I am then please feel free to tell me. Age: 29 Posts: 2,048	Re: I am a Swing Voter. Sway me! Marriage is more respect in America then any where else? HAHA! Thats why America has the highest divorce rate.

11-04-2004, 10:27 PM	#139 (permalink)
luna Join Date: May 2003 Location: Rhode Island Age: 30 Posts: 4,136	Re: I am a Swing Voter. Sway me! It isn't the non-religious who are making Christmas break "Winter break" and all of that. Speaking on behalf of that portion of the populus, we don't care what you call it, as long as it equates to a week off. Again, if we MUST turn to point fingers, let's take a look at OTHER religions that have an issue with the whole Christian characterization of the holidays. There's Hannukah, Quanzaa and the Solstice all in a similar time frame. Unless you'd rather call it "Christmas/Hannukah/Quanzaa/Solstice break", which frankly, I don't ever want to have to type again, you're going to see the general populus saying "Winter Break". It has nothing to do with not wanting religion around us- it's that every religion wants recognition. As for gay folks being involved in the no religion issue, I dispute that heartily. Removing "under god" from the pledge has nothing to do with sexual preference. I also never said that christians alone were interferring with gay rights, although on the whole, it would be nice to see more tolerance from that section of the population. __________________ Resurgent's New Motivational Motto: "Now train harder! Live inside your character! If it dies, YOU DIE! Focus!" Jesus had a soulstone.

11-04-2004, 10:41 PM	#140 (permalink)
leejo Join Date: Sep 2003 Age: 39 Posts: 7,839	Re: I am a Swing Voter. Sway me! tolerance like ordaining a bishop as the episcopal church recently did? Granted, it wasn't a unanimous thing, but try to appoint a federal judge and see how easy that is.

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