I am a Swing Voter. Sway me! - Page 3

Geisha · 09-15-2004, 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by =DdogG=

its the work that comes out of the office, not the person under the desk, that makes a good president.

Bingo. Now the question is how far do you take personal integrity parallels like Bush's mountain biking vs. Kerry's skiing. When Cing first posted that I thought it was really apropos. But since then I've come to think Samurai's right, and most of the time a President is going to do what he/she honestly thinks is best for the country, regardless of how he/she screws up his/her personal life. The trick then is to find a President that you agree with. Fear for future terms and offices will keep any President doing what the staff believes the most people will think favorably of, which is essentially the goal of a representative government anyway. Then we rely on the dirt-digging media to keep 'em honest. I'd prefer to rely on the independent media, but it's kinda hard to find sometimes.

And US citizens should try to remember that the President is only PART of our government. I don't see why it's less important to vote for Senators or Congressmen who actually MAKE the laws, but I guess only Presidential races get hype because news networks are nationally-oriented. You have to rely on your city news to get state news...

**CingularDuality** · 09-15-2004, 10:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Geisha

Bingo. Now the question is how far do you take personal integrity parallels like Bush's mountain biking vs. Kerry's skiing. When Cing first posted that I thought it was really apropos. But since then I've come to think Samurai's right, and most of the time a President is going to do what he/she honestly thinks is best for the country, regardless of how he/she screws up his/her personal life.

You don't think that a leader's decisions in his/her personal life are a good indication of how he/she is going to decide to handle more important (national) matters? I do.

I don't think the media (and therefore the general populace) focus their scrutiny on the most revealing personal decisions of candidates, however... Like the biking vs. skiing thing. Most people don't know about those two incidents at all. On the other hand, everyone knows that President Bush had some problems with mind altering substances in his college years. A lot of people focus on those as if those decisions early in the President's life still have a negative effect on his decision making ability. Likewise with Senator Kerry's Vietnam service.

**Wolfie** · 09-16-2004, 08:42 PM

Well, not sure what your views are about the "assault weapon ban", but if you go for Kerry, he will push to re-enact the law.

http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/r...2004_0913.html

Quote:

“George Bush made a choice today,” Kerry said. “He chose his powerful friends in the gun lobby over the police officers and the families he promised to protect. The president made the wrong choice. When I am president, we will set America in a new direction with a plan to fight crime and keep our communities safer.”

I guess that makes me evil since I support the NRA?

**phyllis** · 09-16-2004, 08:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wolfie

http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/r...2004_0913.html
I guess that makes me evil since I support the NRA?

Naw...right there with ya bro

Quote:

Originally Posted by link from above

Keep Guns Out of the Hands of Criminals and Terrorists. As an avid hunter, Kerry supports the Second Amendment right to keep and bear arms, but he also understands that hunters don’t need and don’t use AK-47s, but criminals and terrorists do.

Yea...and no one but a Nascar driver needs a car with 400 horsepower

**CingularDuality** · 09-16-2004, 10:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phyllis

Yea...and no one but a Nascar driver needs a car with 390 horsepower

Fixed ...

**phyllis** · 09-16-2004, 10:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CingularDuality

Fixed ...

errrr.....sorry...I only read to here, as I was just looking for that number...my apologies

Quote:

Originally Posted by from above link

The LS2 raises the bar for standard performance in the Corvette, delivering estimated peak output levels of 400 horsepower and 400 lb.-ft. of torque. It is the largest, most powerful standard small-block engine ever offered in Corvette.

yea...yea...I missed the "estimated" part

I guess I shoulda used the Viper for my example eh ?

**=DdogG=** · 09-16-2004, 11:03 PM

he changed the car you were talking about.... not correcting your sourcing.

I think it was a dig on the 'vette for the svt 'stang.

**CingularDuality** · 09-16-2004, 11:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by =DdogG=

he changed the car you were talking about.... not correcting your sourcing.

I think it was a dig on the 'vette for the svt 'stang.

Indeed.

If you're going to use a car analogy, you should use a real car...

**phyllis** · 09-16-2004, 11:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CingularDuality

Indeed.

If you're going to use a car analogy, you should use a real car...

That's what I get for searching the first car that popped into my head

....Back to your regular scheduled debate....

Geisha · 09-18-2004, 01:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CingularDuality

You don't think that a leader's decisions in his/her personal life are a good indication of how he/she is going to decide to handle more important (national) matters? I do.

No, I don't any more. I used to agree with you, because I have a VERY hard time reacting differently in various situations. I have a set personality, and while it has evolved over time it changes very little from situation to situation in a day. I haven't even learned how to censor my foul language in front of my parents or at work, which can be rather embarrassing. What Greg has brought me to realize is that most people DO habitually act differently around their friends, their parents, their coworkers, and sometimes even their spouses. A guy can suck at golf and make up ridiculous stories to save face in front of his buddies; that doesn't mean that when he goes to his unrelated job on Monday he's going to automatically suck at that and spend all his time lying about it. Sports especially seem to bring out the Macho Brag Factor in men, and also in women who want to be perceived as One Of The Guys.

I'll grant you that Bush comes across as a Straight Shooter. In his governer debates in Texas way back when, he did a great job of sounding like a open and honest man by never answering any questions where he didn't have a clear answer. His technique was to say that those questions were off-topic or Not The Issue. Apparently Kerry's technique is to say whatever sounds best at the time. I don't know that either approach is completely honest.

When I choose a candidate this year, it will be strictly on issues. I do agree that personal character matters, Cing; I wouldn't espouse someone who seemed careless or never serious. I just don't agree that personal anecdotes affecting mainly themselves are a clear indicator of how someone would act in a situation that matters to millions of constituents. Maybe it's idealism talking, but surely the weight of responsibility counts for something in the important decisions?

**H-Hour** · 09-18-2004, 02:23 AM

Unfortunately, Kerry and the Democrats have utterly failed to put out policy that is distinct from Bush's. This has pushed the campaign issues into pro- and anti-Bush. That's why you won't find many arguments for why Kerry would be a good president that don't have something to do with Bush. Personally, I think this is a big mistake, and I believe Kerry really began to lose the election a week or so before I left. Now that I'm out of the country, I really don't get much info about what's going on in the campaign process. Kerry's policy on the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, for instance, reads like it was written by Bush and Sharon. That bugs me, not only because I disagree, but because he seems unwilling to oppose Bush's plans.

But here are three reasons I will vote for Kerry:

1. I believe that voting for Kerry is an important message to send to the international community. Internationally, people have always been able to seperate our government from our people, and right now I think there is a real sense abroad that Bush does not speak for a majority of Americans. Voting for Kerry is my chance to say to them that I support multilateralism, that I support an America that embraces and encourages international support.

Many people would loathe the idea of making a vote in this country based on opinion abroad. I do not. I believe opinion abroad is essential for our long-term survival.

2. I believe Kerry's political demeanor and ability to function "in the grey" will encourage international support and drive our nation to a more critical assessment of our situation. While his lack of divisive rhetoric or strong policy make him a less affable character, I believe it is important not only for policy making and diplomacy, but for helping Americans communicate and discuss the issues.

3. I disagree with the concept that Kerry would be weak on foreign policy. This stigma has been placed on the Democrats because of the Clinton era and it is false. The Clinton era had a completely different mood in America. Clinton was weak on foreign policy and military involvement because that is what the nation wanted. Before 9/11, even while Bush was in office, Americans did not want to be get involved militarily. Sending cruise missiles was the only option that was politically palatable. Since 9/11, our country has changed completely. Our President's have much more public support for larger actions, and I believe that - Republican or Democrat - they will use that support.

**DudeMan** · 09-18-2004, 10:59 AM

i really stayed away from this thread because i dont vote in the US but what H-hour just said really sparks off a few copmments.

you think that the french and germans really need know what the hell is going on when you make decisions based on your own peoples choice, i think that is crap im sorry. when you say world support i am puzzled as to who you mean. you had support from the UK, ireland poland, iran, spain, and i bet russia would be more fourthcomming about support now. the two vocal countries that didnt support it were the french and germans.

now while i wont just say ahh well their worthless and dont get a say, you have to remember that Chirac and his counterpart in Germany didnt like the united states long before this whole thing came up. look over history on anything the US tries to do and you bet the french are trying to veto it. well that is apart from pushing hitler back across france.

and when you say that the rest of the world loath america you are not just mistaken but misled, i have watched cnn and fox news on my satelite tele. and one thing i have noticed is the constant druming about protests around the world about america. but i supprted the war, my family did... most of my friends did, and i am not the only one. i think you will find that the world is very similar to your own country, there is some who dont and some who do. your problem arises when your news focuses on those who dont.

noone will rally to say dont worry everything you are doing is fine with me, so the only protests you get are anti american. we just stopped in this country hunting with hounds, most of our populous feel it is sick and cruel, there were protests about that, does it mean it is wrong, possibly, on the otherhand, possibly not. to vote for kerry so that he will listen to those countries who didnt agree is proposterous. what does it say to those who have already supported you, that infact we didnt apreciate your response and support because the french were not involved?

i would vote for a second term for Bush in that election, because he has already provbed himself to be decisvie and strong in the face of danger. and in the current climate of fear in the world and particularily in the united states i think letting loose an untested politically timid guy on the country is bad idea number 1.

Kerry couldnt even prove himself in a campaign trail, leaving his campaign to: "look i have 3 purple hearts and bush went to college. em ugg.. " this as far as i can see it was his only real subject to talk about, getting 3 purple hearts...

**leejo** · 09-18-2004, 11:06 AM

Nice post Dudeman!

Hey H-Hour! Glad to see you're in one piece.

**Wolfie** · 09-18-2004, 03:30 PM

We should never vote into office someone that the world likes, it should be someone that US citizens want in office.

**DudeMan** · 09-18-2004, 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wolfie

We should never vote into office someone that the world likes, it should be someone that US citizens want in office.

precisely, if you get both at the same time then thats a bonus, but i certainly dont look at all who europe thinks my prime minister will be, i look at who i think my prime minister should be.

Tony Blair all the way, a record theird election comming up.

09-16-2004, 11:03 PM	#37 (permalink)
=DdogG= Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Ennis, TX Age: 31 Posts: 1,773	Re: I am a Swing Voter. Sway me! he changed the car you were talking about.... not correcting your sourcing. I think it was a dig on the 'vette for the svt 'stang. __________________ Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. -Albert Einstein The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity. -Harlan Ellison If all else fails: "rm -rf /"

09-18-2004, 02:23 AM	#41 (permalink)
H-Hour Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 1,437	Re: I am a Swing Voter. Sway me! Unfortunately, Kerry and the Democrats have utterly failed to put out policy that is distinct from Bush's. This has pushed the campaign issues into pro- and anti-Bush. That's why you won't find many arguments for why Kerry would be a good president that don't have something to do with Bush. Personally, I think this is a big mistake, and I believe Kerry really began to lose the election a week or so before I left. Now that I'm out of the country, I really don't get much info about what's going on in the campaign process. Kerry's policy on the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, for instance, reads like it was written by Bush and Sharon. That bugs me, not only because I disagree, but because he seems unwilling to oppose Bush's plans. But here are three reasons I will vote for Kerry: 1. I believe that voting for Kerry is an important message to send to the international community. Internationally, people have always been able to seperate our government from our people, and right now I think there is a real sense abroad that Bush does not speak for a majority of Americans. Voting for Kerry is my chance to say to them that I support multilateralism, that I support an America that embraces and encourages international support. Many people would loathe the idea of making a vote in this country based on opinion abroad. I do not. I believe opinion abroad is essential for our long-term survival. 2. I believe Kerry's political demeanor and ability to function "in the grey" will encourage international support and drive our nation to a more critical assessment of our situation. While his lack of divisive rhetoric or strong policy make him a less affable character, I believe it is important not only for policy making and diplomacy, but for helping Americans communicate and discuss the issues. 3. I disagree with the concept that Kerry would be weak on foreign policy. This stigma has been placed on the Democrats because of the Clinton era and it is false. The Clinton era had a completely different mood in America. Clinton was weak on foreign policy and military involvement because that is what the nation wanted. Before 9/11, even while Bush was in office, Americans did not want to be get involved militarily. Sending cruise missiles was the only option that was politically palatable. Since 9/11, our country has changed completely. Our President's have much more public support for larger actions, and I believe that - Republican or Democrat - they will use that support.

09-18-2004, 10:59 AM	#42 (permalink)
DudeMan Join Date: May 2003 Location: london England Age: 22 Posts: 3,258	Re: I am a Swing Voter. Sway me! i really stayed away from this thread because i dont vote in the US but what H-hour just said really sparks off a few copmments. you think that the french and germans really need know what the hell is going on when you make decisions based on your own peoples choice, i think that is crap im sorry. when you say world support i am puzzled as to who you mean. you had support from the UK, ireland poland, iran, spain, and i bet russia would be more fourthcomming about support now. the two vocal countries that didnt support it were the french and germans. now while i wont just say ahh well their worthless and dont get a say, you have to remember that Chirac and his counterpart in Germany didnt like the united states long before this whole thing came up. look over history on anything the US tries to do and you bet the french are trying to veto it. well that is apart from pushing hitler back across france. and when you say that the rest of the world loath america you are not just mistaken but misled, i have watched cnn and fox news on my satelite tele. and one thing i have noticed is the constant druming about protests around the world about america. but i supprted the war, my family did... most of my friends did, and i am not the only one. i think you will find that the world is very similar to your own country, there is some who dont and some who do. your problem arises when your news focuses on those who dont. noone will rally to say dont worry everything you are doing is fine with me, so the only protests you get are anti american. we just stopped in this country hunting with hounds, most of our populous feel it is sick and cruel, there were protests about that, does it mean it is wrong, possibly, on the otherhand, possibly not. to vote for kerry so that he will listen to those countries who didnt agree is proposterous. what does it say to those who have already supported you, that infact we didnt apreciate your response and support because the french were not involved? i would vote for a second term for Bush in that election, because he has already provbed himself to be decisvie and strong in the face of danger. and in the current climate of fear in the world and particularily in the united states i think letting loose an untested politically timid guy on the country is bad idea number 1. Kerry couldnt even prove himself in a campaign trail, leaving his campaign to: "look i have 3 purple hearts and bush went to college. em ugg.. " this as far as i can see it was his only real subject to talk about, getting 3 purple hearts... __________________ The Queen "Those who perpetrate these brutal acts against innocent people should know that they will not change our way of life," *Atrocities such as these simply reinforce our sense of community* TheFeniX "Guns don't kill people: effeminate men in green tunics do"

09-18-2004, 11:06 AM	#43 (permalink)
leejo Join Date: Sep 2003 Age: 39 Posts: 7,839	Re: I am a Swing Voter. Sway me! Nice post Dudeman! Hey H-Hour! Glad to see you're in one piece.

09-18-2004, 03:30 PM	#44 (permalink)
Wolfie Join Date: May 2003 Location: Michigan Age: 33 Posts: 1,405	Re: I am a Swing Voter. Sway me! We should never vote into office someone that the world likes, it should be someone that US citizens want in office.

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