The FSM appears on the Texas horizon - Page 2

Beatnik · 12-07-2007, 09:27 AM

An FYI email passed on to friends hardly qualifies as "dragging her boss into it".

Additionally, it wasn't a big public issue until she was fired.

And just like you said describing "a person that crafted the memo" speaking of neutrality that was not TEA policy, a person forwarding an email to friends simply as FYI, sans commentary, doesn't necessarily imply it's TEA policy.

Although it 100% should be. The Director of Science should be actively disavowing all non-scientific claims, specifically those that attempt to work religion into the classroom, disguised as science.

**leejo** · 12-07-2007, 01:59 PM

Beatnik, don't you think it's safe to say that there is some more to this woman's termination than we're seeing here? I hope that she wasn't terminated for this single offense and suspect that she had established a pattern of insubordination and hostility to management's position.

And I disagree that the Director of Science should be disavowing all non-scientific claims. The Director of Science should be actively crafting and managing the Science curriculum. You don't have to actively disavow anything to be effective in the latter role, and in fact the more you keep your mouth shut on controversial issues the more successful you may be in running a good program.

AMosely · 12-07-2007, 02:26 PM

I've been watching this story too. The New York times editorial staff commented on it on December 4th. I don't understand what's so controversial about intelligent design - it was formally debunked in a federal courtroom. It's not controversial anymore, and anyone who thinks it should be needs to get up to date with their scientific (and legal) education. There was irrefutable evidence that intelligent design's origins lie with creationists. It is not science. It is rebranded creationism, which is a religious belief. At that same trial, the theory of evolution held up to every test presented, and in fact even held up against the ID team's defense evidence. If you're still looking for proof, go and get a flu shot. That forumla is derived every year from lab-evolved flu virus strains in attempt to 'guess' the next evolutionary cycle of the virus.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NYTimes Editorial, Dec. 4 2007

Is Texas about to become the next state to undermine the teaching of evolution? That is the scary implication of the abrupt ousting of Christine Comer, the state’s top expert on science education. Her transgression: forwarding an e-mail message about a talk by a distinguished professor who debunks “intelligent design” and creationism as legitimate alternatives to evolution in the science curriculum.

In most states, we hope, the state department of education would take the lead in ensuring that students receive a sound scientific education. But it was the Texas Education Agency that pushed out Ms. Comer after 27 years as a science teacher and 9 years as the agency’s director of science.

As Ralph Blumenthal reported in The Times yesterday, Ms. Comer forwarded to a local online community an e-mail message from a pro-evolution group announcing a talk by Barbara Forrest, a professor of philosophy at Southeastern Louisiana University. Professor Forrest testified as an expert witness in a 2005 Dover, Pa., case that found intelligent design supernatural and theological and definitely not part of a scientific education.

An hour later, Ms. Comer was called in by superiors, pressured to send out a retraction and ultimately forced to resign. Her departure was instigated by a new deputy commissioner who had served as an adviser to George Bush when he was governor of Texas and more recently worked in the federal Department of Education.

It was especially disturbing that the agency accused Ms. Comer — by forwarding the e-mail message — of taking a position on “a subject on which the agency must remain neutral.” Surely the agency should not remain neutral on the central struggle between science and religion in the public schools. It should take a stand in favor of evolution as a central theory in modern biology. Texas’s own education standards require the teaching of evolution.

Those standards are scheduled to be reviewed next year. Ms. Comer’s dismissal and comments in favor of intelligent design by the chairman of the state board of education do not augur well for that review. We can only hope that adherents of a sound science education can save Texas from a retreat into the darker ages.

**tHa_KhAn** · 12-07-2007, 03:03 PM

ID is not normally taught in public schools because no matter what you do, it's hard to abandon or ignore the religious origins. I dare say it's impossible to debunk the idea of a supreme being. You can certainly ignore it, but to debunk it is impossible because of its very nature is unscientific.

Beatnik · 12-07-2007, 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leejo

Beatnik, don't you think it's safe to say that there is some more to this woman's termination than we're seeing here? I hope that she wasn't terminated for this single offense and suspect that she had established a pattern of insubordination and hostility to management's position.

I'd certainly hope as much too. But all signs point in the other direction. Sounds like the little intervention management had was directly related to this email. Awesome.

Beatnik · 12-10-2007, 04:34 PM

http://www.sciencefriday.com/program/archives/200712071

^^ Link to NPR's Science Friday interview with Christine Castillo Comer. It provides a lot more info on the specific circumstances regarding her firing.

The quick review: pretty much the new, unofficial position of the TEA is that they support Creationism. At least, according to Mrs. Comer.

**leejo** · 12-10-2007, 05:09 PM

I'm not surprised that's her view and her story.

**MasterEditorInChief** · 12-11-2007, 10:01 AM

The TEA policy states that they "must remain neutral" on the subject, but from the looks of things they're just muting the voice of the opposition. It would have been fair for someone to send out an FYI e-mail on something supporting creationism.

Education is all sorts of messed up in Texas. I don't even remember being taught evolution. I was taught about Darwin and what he did, but never went in depth. Another thing, standardized testing has ruined the teaching structure of schools. As someone planning to become a teacher, I would simply refuse to teach by some test that I myself never worried about (I was an AP student, bite me

). It's not so much as teaching student to pass the test; that's what teachers do. It's the notion that you must teach around the test and only the test that irks me, and if you don't believe me you obviously didn't go to school under the Texas Assessment of Academic Skills or TAAS test. It goes by a new name now, but the problems are still there. Worse, we still haven't found a working plan to fund schools in Texas. That's more complicated, and something way over my head.

**TheFeniX** · 12-11-2007, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterEditorInChief

Education is all sorts of messed up in Texas. I don't even remember being taught evolution. I was taught about Darwin and what he did, but never went in depth.

Our Biology classes focused more on genomes and species classification. I wouldn't realize at the time, but the issue was avoided completely based on political (not science) grounds.

Quote:

Another thing, standardized testing has ruined the teaching structure of schools. As someone planning to become a teacher, I would simply refuse to teach by some test that I myself never worried about (I was an AP student, bite me

).

And you'd be fired or moved to classes where you could do "less damage."

Our Computer Science and Calculus teacher (Who had her masters in Comp Sci which came with like 4 years of advanced math) was knocked down to teaching basic Algebra because of an argument she had with the principal during a staff meeting. She was unable to tell me specifically what, but I would assume it had something to do with TAAS based on all the drama it was creating at the time. The person who replaced her was still trying to (and failing) get her Bachelors. Luckily, I had already taken both, but speaking with some students, it was a very painful class.

Excellent teachers forced to "shut-it" by overpaid and stupid administration. I could go on at length about the absolute pathetic nature of the American Public Education System. Actually joining the work force and doing jobs for schools didn't raise that bar either.

Quote:

It's not so much as teaching student to pass the test; that's what teachers do. It's the notion that you must teach around the test and only the test that irks me, and if you don't believe me you obviously didn't go to school under the Texas Assessment of Academic Skills or TAAS test. It goes by a new name now, but the problems are still there. Worse, we still haven't found a working plan to fund schools in Texas. That's more complicated, and something way over my head.

It's money. Every idiotic and worthless exam or idea come up with by the school board is based around two concepts: making sure they all keep their jobs and making sure they get more money.

If you teach kids to pass standardized tests, then you don't have to worry about them actually learning anything. It doesn't matter if they can't read above a 5th grade level, as long as they can read enough to fill in the correct multiple choice question and write an essay, the school numbers look good and more funding comes.

AMosely · 12-11-2007, 05:39 PM

It's incredibly sad that people in positions of shaping children's education are so ignorant. There is active research on evolution in all living things going on every single day. Do creationists suppose this is all made up junk, that a scientist can spend a lifetime on genetic evolutionary research just spinning stoires for no good reason? If it's all junk, why do so many people around the globe now receive flu shots, containing a vaccine that is a tangible evolutionary byproduct? Or do they just ignore that aspect of it and consume it as they do any other manufactured good. I say it's time to wake up and smell the flu vaccine.

Anyway, here's one for the Texas folks on current human evolutionary genetic research:

Quote:

Beneficial genetic changes have appeared at a rate roughly 100 times higher in the past 5,000 years than at any previous period of human evolution, the researchers determined. They added that about 7 percent of human genes are undergoing rapid, relatively recent evolution.

http://www.reuters.com/article/newsO...43228620071210

**TheFeniX** · 12-11-2007, 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AMosely

It's incredibly sad that people in positions of shaping children's education are so ignorant. There is active research on evolution in all living things going on every single day. Do creationists suppose this is all made up junk, that a scientist can spend a lifetime on genetic evolutionary research just spinning stoires for no good reason? If it's all junk, why do so many people around the globe now receive flu shots, containing a vaccine that is a tangible evolutionary byproduct? Or do they just ignore that aspect of it and consume it as they do any other manufactured good. I say it's time to wake up and smell the flu vaccine.

Most people in support of Creationism or ID generally don't argue against what they dub as "micro-evolution," small changes in organisms over time. You can't really argue against this because, lets face it, it's directly observable. Viruses evolve, there's new bacteria resistant to anti-biotics, scientists have increased the life-span of fruit flies through selective breeding, etc.

What their issue is with is "macro-evolution" which is really the same thing but on a larger scale. Fish beget amphibians, amphibians beget reptiles, etc. Most of this stems directly from Darwins observations of inherited traits and the origin of species. Whereas it IS observable in the sense that why else would Dolphins have vestigal hands, or that vertebrates share many similar organs, it's not exactly something that slaps you in the face everyday.

Further, they like to believe humans are exempt from this evolutionary change. The arguments against it are generally something like "If humans evolved from monkeys, why are monkeys still around?" It may seem like a valid question, but just because there's strains of resistant bacteria that have evolved doesn't mean the original bacteria disappeared.

It's fundamentally flawed logic and doesn't belong in the science classroom at all. That's why proponents of ID go through the legal process. You don't need scientific credibility when politicians can demand teachers teach it as valid.

This is literally no different than a someone demanding that "The sun is really Apollo's chariot flying through that sky" be taught as a legitimate scientific theory alongside the theory that the earth revolves around the sun.

Santa · 12-11-2007, 09:11 PM

Although Texas education is pretty abysmal, I at least had about 50% of my teachers who were competent, and most of the other 50% were teaching classes that simply didnt matter.

In Arizona, im lucky if i get more than one teacher each year thats competent. Freshman year my only competent teacher was in math, sophomore year it was in math again, junior year it was in US history, and amazingly this year I have a good calc and government teacher. With 6 classes every day, having only about 1/6 of the teachers actually teaching everyday says a lot. And even in those few classes where I am learning something, its almost always mindless trivial bull**** that Ill never actually need in life. I could live with it if it were trivial but required critical thinking, but it doesn't much of the time.

State given standardized tests need to be taken away as well, or done completely different. At the moment, most teachers teach how to take the test and it takes up most of the class time. Although the idiots in the class may finally learn how to read, they aren't really being challenged in anyway, and the smarter kids just have to sit around and pick their noses because they're so bored of the easy work. A better alternative is to have every kid in the grade take the "dumbass test" before the school year starts. If you pass, you dont have to take the standardized test later and can actually learn something everyday. If you manage to fail somehow, you are put in the "idiot class" with all the other idiots where you can work on passing later in the year.

ANYWAY, to get somewhat back on topic, I actually learned about evolution in my 9th grade bio class, but we were told "and its just a theory". I was actually surprised we learned about it at all given how mormon this state is.

**tHa_KhAn** · 12-12-2007, 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AMosely

It's incredibly sad that people in positions of shaping children's education are so ignorant. There is active research on evolution in all living things going on every single day. Do creationists suppose this is all made up junk, that a scientist can spend a lifetime on genetic evolutionary research just spinning stoires for no good reason? If it's all junk, why do so many people around the globe now receive flu shots, containing a vaccine that is a tangible evolutionary byproduct? Or do they just ignore that aspect of it and consume it as they do any other manufactured good. I say it's time to wake up and smell the flu vaccine.

I think the misunderstanding stems from the extremes of each side. Evolutionists tend to credit all positive mutations as some great process for the greater of the species, as if the species meant for it to happen. In reality it is just blind luck or a benefit induced by human interference. Creationists don't argue that it doesn't take place, just that there is a higher order behind it all. Until scientist can prove that there is not some higher order(which is impossible) there will always be a creationism/ID viewpoint. The reason there still is a debate is the origins. To say nothingness spawned gases that randomly collided to form the universe as we know it, is just as abstract and impossible to prove as a supreme being decided to create the universe. Some people choose to accept trace amounts of rocks and gases as proof of their origins, others do not. The amount of effort put into researching a subject is not necessarily the same as finding proof in favor of it.

A flu shot is merely the mutation(s) of the flu predicted to be the most dangerous or prevalent. I personally see more people sick that take the flu shots, than those that don't at my place of work. What happens is that while that particular mutation was believed to be the most dangerous, there are plenty of times when it is not, especially on a regional basis. I choose not to get flu shots because it is based on a guess of a random mutation. I do not recall getting true flu like symptoms in a long time. Is this due to some evolution of my immune system or a blessing from God with a tougher immune system? Pretty hard to tell,but I choose not to put my faith(and health) in capitalistic insurance companies and medical outlets that are behind the flu vaccines. A staunch evolutionist values the mutations as proof of natural selection and positive survival of the species. An equally rabid creationist would view the lack of co-evolution of the human immune system as proof against evolution and argue the surviving strains are just that, they weren't targeted so they survived.

It's an endless debate. Until science can truly, without a shadow of a doubt prove the origins there will always be room for debate.

AMosely · 12-12-2007, 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tHa_KaHn

It's an endless debate. Until science can truly, without a shadow of a doubt prove the origins there will always be room for debate.

I completely agree with your underlying logic - for many, macro evolution is unprovable and goes against what they've been told either in scripture or in school or both. Isn't 'truth beyond a shadow of a doubt' putting a stiflingly heavy burden on science, though? I agree that scientific theories should held to certain standards of proof, but in many cases - and evolution of species may be one of them - this may be impossible. If you believe man descended from apes (and there is ample proof of that even without having found 'the missing link'), why is it such a stretch to accept the theory of even broader, macro evolution?

Kerostasis · 12-12-2007, 12:46 PM

I am suddenly seized with a strange desire to post up the school paper I wrote on the Evolution/ID Debate two years ago, which I just happened to find on my computer yesterday. Its generic enough to still apply pretty well.

The end result conclusion is that the primary difference between ID and Macro-evolutionary-theory is in the Predictions made about how modern evolutionary trends had influenced the past. They have a lot of agreement about what is observed today.

12-07-2007, 09:27 AM	#16 (permalink)
Beatnik Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Austin, TX Age: 33 Posts: 4,312	Re: The FSM appears on the Texas horizon An FYI email passed on to friends hardly qualifies as "dragging her boss into it". Additionally, it wasn't a big public issue until she was fired. And just like you said describing "a person that crafted the memo" speaking of neutrality that was not TEA policy, a person forwarding an email to friends simply as FYI, sans commentary, doesn't necessarily imply it's TEA policy. Although it 100% should be. The Director of Science should be actively disavowing all non-scientific claims, specifically those that attempt to work religion into the classroom, disguised as science.

12-07-2007, 01:59 PM	#17 (permalink)
leejo Join Date: Sep 2003 Age: 39 Posts: 7,524	Re: The FSM appears on the Texas horizon Beatnik, don't you think it's safe to say that there is some more to this woman's termination than we're seeing here? I hope that she wasn't terminated for this single offense and suspect that she had established a pattern of insubordination and hostility to management's position. And I disagree that the Director of Science should be disavowing all non-scientific claims. The Director of Science should be actively crafting and managing the Science curriculum. You don't have to actively disavow anything to be effective in the latter role, and in fact the more you keep your mouth shut on controversial issues the more successful you may be in running a good program.

12-07-2007, 03:03 PM	#19 (permalink)
tHa_KhAn Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: The Gunshine State Age: 27 Posts: 2,034	Re: The FSM appears on the Texas horizon ID is not normally taught in public schools because no matter what you do, it's hard to abandon or ignore the religious origins. I dare say it's impossible to debunk the idea of a supreme being. You can certainly ignore it, but to debunk it is impossible because of its very nature is unscientific. __________________

12-10-2007, 04:34 PM	#21 (permalink)
Beatnik Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Austin, TX Age: 33 Posts: 4,312	Re: The FSM appears on the Texas horizon http://www.sciencefriday.com/program/archives/200712071 ^^ Link to NPR's Science Friday interview with Christine Castillo Comer. It provides a lot more info on the specific circumstances regarding her firing. The quick review: pretty much the new, unofficial position of the TEA is that they support Creationism. At least, according to Mrs. Comer.

12-10-2007, 05:09 PM	#22 (permalink)
leejo Join Date: Sep 2003 Age: 39 Posts: 7,524	Re: The FSM appears on the Texas horizon I'm not surprised that's her view and her story.

12-11-2007, 10:01 AM	#23 (permalink)
MasterEditorInChief Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 784	Re: The FSM appears on the Texas horizon The TEA policy states that they "must remain neutral" on the subject, but from the looks of things they're just muting the voice of the opposition. It would have been fair for someone to send out an FYI e-mail on something supporting creationism. Education is all sorts of messed up in Texas. I don't even remember being taught evolution. I was taught about Darwin and what he did, but never went in depth. Another thing, standardized testing has ruined the teaching structure of schools. As someone planning to become a teacher, I would simply refuse to teach by some test that I myself never worried about (I was an AP student, bite me ). It's not so much as teaching student to pass the test; that's what teachers do. It's the notion that you must teach around the test and only the test that irks me, and if you don't believe me you obviously didn't go to school under the Texas Assessment of Academic Skills or TAAS test. It goes by a new name now, but the problems are still there. Worse, we still haven't found a working plan to fund schools in Texas. That's more complicated, and something way over my head. __________________ "On that day half a century ago, our species was pushed to the crumbling edge of extinction. And as we teetered on that precipice, staring down into the abyss, a hand reached out, pulled us back from the brink, and gave us hope... the hand of a Hero."

12-11-2007, 09:11 PM	#27 (permalink)
Santa Registered User Join Date: Jul 2005 Age: 18 Posts: 3,355	Re: The FSM appears on the Texas horizon Although Texas education is pretty abysmal, I at least had about 50% of my teachers who were competent, and most of the other 50% were teaching classes that simply didnt matter. In Arizona, im lucky if i get more than one teacher each year thats competent. Freshman year my only competent teacher was in math, sophomore year it was in math again, junior year it was in US history, and amazingly this year I have a good calc and government teacher. With 6 classes every day, having only about 1/6 of the teachers actually teaching everyday says a lot. And even in those few classes where I am learning something, its almost always mindless trivial bull**** that Ill never actually need in life. I could live with it if it were trivial but required critical thinking, but it doesn't much of the time. State given standardized tests need to be taken away as well, or done completely different. At the moment, most teachers teach how to take the test and it takes up most of the class time. Although the idiots in the class may finally learn how to read, they aren't really being challenged in anyway, and the smarter kids just have to sit around and pick their noses because they're so bored of the easy work. A better alternative is to have every kid in the grade take the "dumbass test" before the school year starts. If you pass, you dont have to take the standardized test later and can actually learn something everyday. If you manage to fail somehow, you are put in the "idiot class" with all the other idiots where you can work on passing later in the year. ANYWAY, to get somewhat back on topic, I actually learned about evolution in my 9th grade bio class, but we were told "and its just a theory". I was actually surprised we learned about it at all given how mormon this state is.

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