ScratchMonkey

If you want to continue paying a private firm to do a poor job, feel free to do so. But with a tax-supported "firm", you don't get to choose to stop buying from them. The only way to switch to a "competitor" is to move and change citizenship.

I've worked for an incompetent corporation. It lost the divisions it was incompetent to run (massive brain drain), and customers went elsewhere.

When a government organization fails, it just claims that it was underfunded, and gets paid more. The tax effect of any given program is relatively small (death of a thousand papercuts, anyone?) while the benefit effect is focused, so once a constituency of vocal beneficiaries (including employees) develops, it's very hard to shut such a program down again.

mentholated

Then the only solution is to collectively boycott the federal government.

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leejo

The only solution is to starve the beast as much as possible while the next generation grows up and realizes that taking Daddy's money by force won't cure their money problems. Or the people who desire higher tax rates could move to the countries that have them and enjoy all the wealth, power, and social harmony those taxes have created.

PanzerHans

It is all a matter of conscience. Do you care about other people? Some are not so fortunate as yourselves. They might have grown up with parent abusing drugs, they might have some sort of mental handicap, or life could just have taken an ugly turn. In order to provide a safety harness taxes are needed. Properly distributed taxes add to the overall quality of life for everyone.
If people only thought about themselves how do you think that society would look like?
Surely not a place I would like to live.
Take a look at countries without any proper social welfare system like Indonesia, the effect is huge social unrest.

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leejo

That's a load of crap, and arrogant. Do you suppose that the only people who care about others are those who agree with you on tax policy? Is it at all possible that people who have a different view about tax policy may actually be on to something you haven't figured out and may actually do much more than you do to demonstrate their care about other people? Drop the name calling, which this really is - unless there's some way to paraphrase your statement in any way other than "stop being miserly".

There are many reasons why a country like Indonesia may have huge social unrest, and I don't think that social unrest is necessarily a bad thing. But in any case, do you suggest that the higher the tax rate the less chance of social unrest? If so, I wonder why that might be, and what such a government might do to people who cause "social unrest."

PanzerHans

I am not calling you out explicitly. I am using "you" as a reference to people. If I was answering your post I would have quoted it.

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leejo

So am I different from "people" or do you merely insult me in a general manner. All people like me are miserly, not just me in particular?

I was watching the BIG GAME Saturday night, and it occurred to me that I don't like Tom Brady. He's taller than I am. He can throw the ball harder than I can. He makes a TON more money than I do, and let's face it, he's better looking. CRAP.

So I think that a more equitable set of rules that helped people like me (the "less fortunate") score as many touchdowns and appear to be as good looking as Tom Brady would be a good thing. I saw a study the other day that showed that the top 1% of all touchdown scorers score 90% of the touchdowns in the NFL! That's totally unacceptable, and something must be done to stop these players who have benefited so much from scoring touchdown after touchdown on the backs of we less fortunate. Preferably something that doesn't involve my working harder or somehow magically having the same talents as these who have so very many touchdowns....to spare!

Look, it is NOT about whether or not you care about "people". It's about whether or not you feel that you are getting decent value for your (extracted-by-force) investment - that it isn't simply wasted. AND it depends on whether or not you think that government's role is to solve every little problem that exists in society or between two people. I think government should focus on protecting borders, foreign policy, establishing policies that promote commerce and establish laws that keep things basically civil. I don't think that government should be out on patrol looking for people who are "less fortunate" than I am. I don't even have a problem with someone being "less fortunate" than I. Hell, I don't have a problem with someone being "more fortunate" than me. Keep things fair and let's compete.

PanzerHans

What is your argument exactly. It is so full of nonsense I can hardly apprehend it.

Your posting is saying that your government is stealing daddy's money. Stealing is per definition wrong, so the government is wrong in collecting taxes. Are you suggesting a system where people can choose whether they wish to pay taxes? How do you imagine that your government would keep a police force, or military system for that sake. Not to mention other parts of the government functions.

Leejo, if I read your posting in #33 correctly, you are suggesting a system not even a mental patient would consider when it comes to running a country.
I don't believe for a second that you really mean what your posted. This looks much like many of the posts I have seen you writing in the Sandbox, where you are arguing just for the sakes of creating a debate.

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CingularDuality

And there's the line in the sand. Almost everyone agrees that government is necessary and taxes are needed to provide things that individuals simply can't provide for themselves. The disagreement isn't over infrastructure, police and military, or anything that is obviously in the best interest of the people to invest in. The disagreement comes when we get to the Robin Hood part of the argument. Income redistribution. Taking from the rich to give to the poor. I know that people from other countries might not understand, as I believe that the USA is far more charitable than other countries, but we have private social organizations that can take care of the poor. Churches have been doing a fine job of exactly that for hundreds and hundreds of years. Why do we suddenly (in the last hundred years) need the government to take care of our poor? Does this not lead to an entitlement society where people will actually choose to live off of the government's (actually the people's) handouts?

Pretending not to see leejo's point doesn't become you, Panzer.

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TacticalGamer TX LAN/BBQ Veteran:

leejo

Then obviously you read it incorrectly!

ScratchMonkey

Precisely.

The United States for over a hundred years ran with no income tax. And after that, the income tax was still paid primarily by the rich for quite some time. (It kept getting introduced to fund various wars, such as the Civil War and WWI. Withholding was added to support WWII.) Yet we weren't a country of lawlessness and chaos.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxatio..._United_States

I guess that makes the Founders of the US Constitution nuttier than mental patients. If this be insanity, I say let's make the most of it!

El_Gringo_Grande

Or we can continue to use the democratic system and to determine the taxing and spedning levels and have all that don't like the system move to another country.

No. And really there isn't proof that this actually happens except in pretty small numbers. Our poor where not all that well taken care of, either.

Plus, I don't think many realize how much we all do depend on the the government (actually the people).

And there are some of us that believe that the government taking care of certain aspects of the poor is, in fact, infrastructure. Some also believe that allowing too much wealth in a small segment of the people is a recipe for disaster. (Unless you want to apply laws based on wealth.)

So that line in the sand is mighty wavy. What one considers necessary another considers wasteful. Again, the democracy takes care of this over time.

And many would say the the US suffered because of this with things such as high infant mortality compared to our relativly high income. We ran for 100 years because we where basically a frontier and organized government doesn't do to well in those situations. Not fluid enough.

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Sen. John McCain (AZ) For President '08
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I’m not racists, I have republican friends. Radio show host.
- "The essence of tyranny is the denial of complexity". -Jacob Burkhardt
- "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds" - Emerson
- "People should not be afraid of it's government, government should be afraid of it's People." - Line from V for Vendetta
- If software were as unreliable as economic theory, there wouldn't be a plane made of anything other than paper that could get off the ground. Jim Fawcette

El_Gringo_Grande

Oh, and that had nothing at all to do with taxes.

__________________
Sen. John McCain (AZ) For President '08
---
I’m not racists, I have republican friends. Radio show host.
- "The essence of tyranny is the denial of complexity". -Jacob Burkhardt
- "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds" - Emerson
- "People should not be afraid of it's government, government should be afraid of it's People." - Line from V for Vendetta
- If software were as unreliable as economic theory, there wouldn't be a plane made of anything other than paper that could get off the ground. Jim Fawcette

CingularDuality

I don't know what you desire as proof, but you're full of it, or have never lived in a city. Come live for a month in Dallas, and tell me that there isn't proof except in small numbers.

BTW, how's New Orleans doing?

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TacticalGamer TX LAN/BBQ Veteran:

mentholated

I'm quoting him because you people obviously didn't read it. You really ought to. You're being robbed as we speak :').

__________________
It's said the road to hell is paved with good intentions. It is with the same good intentions that we blindly place our trust in those with power, the architects of our future and all to often, the manipulators of our ultimate fate.