ScratchMonkey

When I first attempted to learn electronics (around age 10), I tried to take it in using various analogies with fluid flow and failed. The second time I tried (about 18) I decided to ignore trying to "understand" it and instead just focus on the math. V=IR. v=iZ. Then Laplace transforms. Then Maxwell's Equations. Pretty complex stuff that doesn't seem very connected to the everyday world. Yet it explains the phenomena we know as electromagnetism. The progression from the simple equation to Maxwell's is similar to the progression from Newton to Einstein to quantum mechanics, with further refinements the further one gets from "normalcy" (essentially as the frequency goes up).

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Gambit7

There's a thought that in order to unify the fields and perfect the Standard Model we'll most likely have to understand physics from another Universe(s) entirely. Some feel that's where the gap lay, in that interactions are occuring between our physical universe and another - effectively borking any attempt at solving the problem unless you make an assumption as to the structure of a "multiverse."

I know this sounds phreaky but it's gaining traction. In a way it makes sense. How can you truly understand our own physics when there's an unseen variable mucking up the works?

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leejo

I don't know about all that. For one thing, I don't understand what it means to say that something is "outside" this universe and yet is having a physical influence on this universe. And I don't know what "to understand physics from another Universe entirely" means.

Anyway, for me the multi-universe magic-dimension stuff is still just sci-fi for two reasons:

1. Nobody has figured out how to test it or how to use it
2. It reminds me of a cartoon a mathematics professor had in his office. A professorial type in a lab coat is trying to solve an extremely complex equation on a chalk board. After several rows "Then a miracle occurs" is written followed by "=4".

I am suspicious of solving complex equations by yanking extra dimensions out of your wazoo, which magic dimensions allow you to make up the values in order to bail you out of a tight mathematical jam. So that's how I look at these extra dimensions. Useless and created as a gimmick to help solve a problem.

Which isn't to say that it's incorrect. Mathematics is full of tricks like this that work, and it may be that some day these extra dimensions will be either fleshed out in terms of their properties or the mathematical technique will be better understood and accepted. It absolutely does not mean that green men from dimension n-1 are secretly visiting our dogs.

That's how I see it anyway, for whatever that's worth.

luna

So... I was wondering....

At which point can we get back to the OP's topic of these folks in Texas and what they say they saw?

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leejo

Did anyone ever have to stop? Uh....I hope they're round and shiny?

P8riot

Did we actually ever get there, Luna? It's odd - I've seen nothing since. Like some others mentioned.. no pics.. no illustrations.. nothing. Maybe it's because my only news on this topic is here on this thread.. eww, thats sad, anyway.

Is it dead? Hidden? Debunked? Or simply unexplained? Texas has space.. lots of it. Oklahoma, Nevada, etc.. all have space. Space for? Testing? There are a lot of prizes for innovation.. X-prize, DARPA funding, and so on- we even have a recent release of info on the blackest black coating ever produced, SO black that anything coated with it would look like a black hole in the sky and on radar. OK, Russia has space. China has space. The oceans have space. But, America has resources and 'free' enterprise so a lot of those private (and public) competitors are based here.. So.. MAYBE it's 'them' and not 'them'.

If it's 'them' and not 'them'.. well.. even if it is 'them'.. I hope they like beer, because I'd love to kick back and have a beer with whichever they are and I'd like to think they would enjoy kicking back with me.. Then I'd take them to go see Blue Man Group for giggles.

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Gambit7

I've given a lot of thought to the UFO phenomenon over the years. I've done a few papers and reports on them back in school also. As you can see, at least an elementary understanding of physics and cosmology is part of my interests as well.

In all my musings what puzzles me the most is that few people actually try to look beyond the saucers and aliens. What we've really got to ask ourselves is, "how'd they get here?" Look, let's face it... the only way a UFO of extra-terrestrial origin could visit our point in space-time is by using some form of FTL drive; whether that be an artificial wormhole, a warp drive (compressing space in front of a ship and expanding it behind), quantum teleportation, a time machine, etc.

So what we really need to think about is HOW to detect these phenomena. One could surmise any of these possible FTL systems would leave some kind of "footprint in the sand," if even for a millisecond.

As of today, we've only got 2 very minimal ways (as far as I know) to detect any such anamoly as it relates to a "warpage" of space, that's Gravity Probe B and GRACE. Both of these are earth-oriented and are highly experimental; not designed to detect anything outside our own orbit. Any gravity well would probably compromise any theorized FTL drive, so most likely a craft "warping" in would do-so outside the influence of our local space. We SHOULD be able to detect any anamolous "gravity waves" though as they pulse through our space-time right? Assuming such a drive would produce gravitic anomolies at all.

Also, there is promise with regards to simply "looking up." I'm not exactly sure who's doing it (MS or Intel maybe), but construction has already started on a wide-field real-time CCD telescope that will monitor the entire sky in video (or a HUGE chunk of it). It really holds the most promise to the effect of keeping an eye on things. One could deduce any such visual phenomena could be picked up by such a device if networked between enough observers (human or computer).

As for my "time travel" statement, there's always the theory that any "aliens" are actually just future representations of ourselves simply gone back in time. I tend not to believe in this theory as traveling to the past is problematic at best. Traveling to the Future is much easier. It is also possible these "aliens" dont view time as we do; 10,000 light-years may be a drop in the bucket to them... perhaps they exist virtually or in stasis for the journey. Perhaps they have total conscious control over their minds and bodies.

The possibilities are endless... it's these possiblities and their detections we need to be exploring, not if Jimbo in Poducket, Texas saw himself a "briiight liiiight."

Gimme a few 100 million Canadian Dollars (US dollar sux), and I'll find you some aliens.

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sordavie

heh

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Gambit7

That's it? "Heh?" I say all that mumbo-jumbo and all you have to say is "heh?"
(grumble)

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P8riot

But NOTHING? for MY comment?

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CingularDuality

As long as it's Shiner...

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ScratchMonkey

My cat receives visitors from dimension n-1. It's the only sensible explanation for her behavior.

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Tarenth

I find it best that we glance at topics Metholated takes an interest in and then take it into a completely different direction. Safer for your sanity and intelligence that way too.

BTW, using our model of physics and understanding upon a theoretical extra terrestrial is a folly in itself. Its putting humanoid characteristic upon what we're already deeming as nonhuman. What if, for example, that theoretical extra terrestrial had a lifespan far surpassing our own? When the life span of a single human buds, blossoms, and dies within the span of an eyeblink of something so long lived then space doesn't seem that big because the time to travel those distances doesn't seem that long. Time is a human concept anyways and relative to our environment.

BTW, that school of thought of not placing our current understanding upon things we don't understand is what I think the 'multiverse' theory touches upon. The only way we can truely see if something we believe to be true is really true, is if we go beyond our understanding and see it from a different perspective.

Example: If you have a base 10 calculator and calculated 7 + 6 you will get 13.

(1 2 3 4 5 6 7) (8 9 10 11 12 13)

However if you had a base 8 calculator and calculated 7 + 6 you will get 15

(1 2 3 4 5 6 7) (8 11 12 13 14 15)

What if our number system actually wrapped around sets of 6 instead of 10?
1 2 3 4 5 6 11 12 13 14 15 16 21 22 23 24 25 26 31...

31 simply doesn't have the same meaning in a 6 based numeric system as it would in a 10 based numeric system.

On a very far tangent: Did you know that UFOs really exsist? To deny the exsistance of UFOs is to claim you are all knowing. Of course there will be Unidentifed Flying Objects. To claim otherwise is to state that all flying objected are identifed and known to everyone. ^_^

A UFO flew over Texas because no one could identify what it was at the time. That doesn't mean aliens are invading Texas.
...
Okay, aliens are invading Texas, but from Mexico. But the UFO doesn't mean we're getting visitors from another planet.

To state UFOs are Aliens contradicts yourself because if you identify them as Aliens then they are no longer Unidentified. ^_^

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sordavie

What is your base 8 example supposed to show? 15 (base 8) = 13 (base 10). So what? It's not as if you've shown that 7+6 results in something different if we look at it from some other perspective. You didn't show that 15=13. What does this have to do with some mathematical trick that theoretical physicists have to spin in order to keep their models consistent?

You've shown that numerals, like any other symbols, can take on different meanings. That's not taking a different perspective.

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Gambit7

Sordavie is right on this one, all you're really changing is the amount of "bits" required to represent particular numbers. Fundamentally, we're still talking a binary system - there's either nothing (0) or there's 1 (1). Nevertheless, of course you'd end up with a strange looking equation or result... but it's still the same thing. It's like typing your name in Binary - it takes more bits to do but it's the same thing as using letters.

Where I think math can get strange is when there can be nothing (0) and something (1) at the same time. Or perhaps everything or nothing is represented at once, yet our Conscious Simulation creates our reality/math from the confusion.

I do believe the realm of Quantum Mechanics deals with thinking in possibilities rather than definitive results, so in a way we have that avenue covered as well.... kinda

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