War.mongeR1

That was a THOUSAND years ago! Let it go already. We're talking about things going on TODAY. Imagine if you will, you are the parent of 2 siblings. One being 10 years older than the other. The older son is off to college and out of the house and doing ok. The younger sibling just got caught setting your cat on fire. Do you excuse it because the older son did something just as similar when he was 8? Or do you all of a sudden start chastising the older son?
"Sorry son, I realize what you did was wrong 10 years ago, so I'm cutting you off from everything. You're grounded. Younger son, it's ok. You're older brother did the same thing 10 years ago. Hehe. Boys will be boys. Run along you little scamp."
Nope, it's still wrong and justice should be dealt accordingly.

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Kerostasis

So, we're going to say that Christianity is just as bad a terrorist organization because of things our ancestors did a thousand years ago? I'm not buying it. I just don't see how that's relevant for a comparison of the effects on today's world. Christian Terrorism, as carried out by modern-day practitioners of modern-day Christianity, is practically non-existant. The same cannot be said for Islam.

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Sir-Nerd

ALL RELIGION IS AT FAULT HERE. Can someone come with anything that involve the Jews killing people.

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mentholated

I agree. It seems that religions were designed solely for the purpose of fanaticism at some level. The idea that if someone doesn't worship the creator in one specific way.. they're wrong and should be dealt with is ridiculous, and only serves to incite violence and war. Only now we're using one religious sect's beliefs as a reason to go to war with THEM, while simultaneously using it as an excuse to call anyone that doesn't go along with it a terrorist.

(by the way, whats the point in worshiping the creator anyway?.. seems kind of redundant for a creation to mindlessly worship its creator and then kill the other creations because they wouldn't kneel on the alter LOLZ like a lego block melting another lego block because the one lego block didn't want to be a part of the space station)

Spirituality is important, and a necessity in my opinion, but religion is completely unnecessary in this world. It may have had purpose to bring people together.. but if they're being brought together in order to kill other people.. whats the point in having them at all?

I see a parallel in the way the minority of the us population that still believes 9-11 wasn't a self inflicted wound and believes we should still be over in Iraq. They've almost turned this "war on terror" into a religion in its own right.

Sigh sighity sigh sigh.

MDFubar

You said that you never hear it, well you are right. The Catholic Church apologized and has since buried it. Apparently, the Muslims have not.
The point is that just about every religion has done it at one time or another. You don't judge the religion, or the people, but rather thier actions.
Are they bad people because they are fullfilling what they believe to be thier payment to thier god to gain entrance to the afterworld? To many, yes they are. Again, this is what they where taught....learned behavior. If you where raised in a muslim family that believed these things to be true, then you would think that you where right and have no prblem with bombing people. Remember, they do not beliebe that these people are innocent because that is not what they where taught.
Taking the analogy used about the two children:
You raise one child in a secluded enviroment and teach him to be nice, patient, cacring, etc.
You raise the second child in a secluded enviroment and teach him to stand his ground, beat up anyone who opposes him or his family, kill anyone who he percieves as a threat, etc.

The two meet in the street and begin discussing thier differences, #2 kills #1. The second child sees nothing wrong with what he did. The first child........well he is dead.

I do not condone nor condeme any religion, all I am saying is to look at what they where taught. They only know what they know, and they don't know what they don't know. People are molded by the people around them.

You believe that your name is *****. Why, because one day someone told you that was your name. Beliefs are just that, what people are taught to believe.

I am not justifying anyone's actions, just trying to get people to look at the reasons why. We say terrorists are bad, they say they are god's warriors. Their people say they are heros.
Reality is one's own perception, and you perception is your reality.

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ScratchMonkey

The Christians are about a millennium ahead of Islam in coexisting with neighbors of differing beliefs. What changed for the Christians? What made them change from terrorist zealots to modern liberals? How do we coax Islamists down that path?

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Kerostasis

Careful Scratch, the last time I tried that line of logic I was loudly criticized for daring to suggest that Islam was somehow behind Christianity and needed to catch up. Apparently part of "co-existing with other beliefs" is "co-existing with those who refuse to co-exist with you, without getting mad at them".

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TeflonDon

The zealous christians have brought it down and a notch and don't need terrorists anymore. They've moved on to more subtle forms of oppression with social-majority-controlled norms: Anti gays, anti abortion, anti sex, pro-life...wait, zealous muslim states hate gays, sex, women and minorities too!

The extremist muslim view is just a 1000 years behind in religious evolution than the extremist christian view. Maybe it was the geography and the agression against them that kept them barbaric. But hey, Israelis have had it worse, and even they wont be brutally violent until someone has drawn a line in the sand.



T

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brain21

Or if you live in Gaza.

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|TG-Irr| Brain21

TeflonDon

You're right, I was thinking about this after I wrote it. They're not blameless either. Their true-fundamentalists are not much different than the muslims', in terms of violent hatred.

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brain21

Heh, all it takes is for the crazies to start shooting, then all hell breaks loose...

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Tarenth

Actually the first step in peaceful cohabitation is understanding. Once you've accepted the differences and worked around or through them then you can peacefully cohabitate. Of course, to reach that understanding you also have to get rid of the 'them' and 'us' problem. That usually involves someone finally getting it through their thick skull that just because they believe in X it does not mean they are any superior morally, mentally, or physically than Y and Z.

The point I was trying to make is that it's easy to point at terrorists and paint them all a generic color and call them Muslims. From that point its easy to link radical islamic beliefs with terrorism. Once you've established that link you lose the ability to think of radical islamic beliefs by itself without the taint of terrorism hiding behind it and you start to get a breakdown in understanding.

When your focus on a point at the exclusion of other points then you lose the perspective to view something clear headed.

I'll say it again: There are just as many CHRISTIAN EXTREMIST TERRORISTS as there are ISLAMIC EXTREMIST TERRORISTS. The religion, then, becomes an unimportant factor and we have to figure out what forces these people to be terrorists.

Delve a little into hate crimes and draw a corrilation between those crimes and the religious reasons the suspects gave for commiting those crimes. If a white man kills a black man in the ghetto and does it because god made white men better than black and the other was getting uppity then that is just as much terrorism in a smaller scale as blowing up a bus. You'll also have to dig a bit past the local clean up that happens in the media if you want to find unvarnished truth. Its pretty difficult for nonextremists of a similar, if milder belief, to blame their shared belief as the cause. Its much easier for someone of a seperate belief to point at that cause and point out it is the same. If the terrorist acts in the middle east weren't so heinous in nature I think you would be hard put to find a nonextremist who would call a 'terrorist' an extermist of the same religion.

It is a fact of the world that a great deal of the popular media we have on hand is controled by good 'christian' sources. Regardless of how nonbias they may claim to be, there will always be a little bit of taint which is why you have to do your own digging.

But I digress a bit. The point was not to say "Chrisitans are as bad as Muslims" its to say "Christians are no better or worse than Muslims and to think so hinders understanding". Neither side is better than the other and you have to take a greater look at the whole before making an opinion.

The Middle East is a violent place.
The Middle East has a high population of Muslims
Ergo, its easy to see why Muslims and Violence can be linked. However the religion is not a sole cause of that violence, it is only a aspect of it.

Also, Jihad is not a term to mean holy war or violence. Its actual meaning is a 'struggle' that is worked upon to overcome. You could say an attempt to give up smoking or drinking in excess is a personal Jihad. Turning around a failing company is a jihad. Confronting your friend about doing heroin is a jihad. Its a struggle to be overcomed that is made for a better result.

If you interpose jihad with religion fanatisim you've already been sucker into a misunderstanding.

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mentholated

Excellent post. Theres nothing I can say other than the CIA is at fault.

TeflonDon

Yeah go and read about situations like "Operation Ajax".

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Tarenth

Ugh...Meth agreed with something I said.

I feel...unclean. -.-;

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My sanity is not in question...
It was a confirmed casualty some time ago.