leejo

That's quite an assertion. Links to recent incidents please? I don't think we have the same understanding of "quite frequently".

leejo

How did you come to make this statement? What's your evidence?

INSUNABULA

In my personal opinion all of this boils down to "personal perception" as someone else may have already said.

An extremist of either religion has trouble putting themselves in each others shoes, that's part of the reason why they are extremists. If they took a moment to think about how the "evil person" is actually much like themselves then there would be less friction (a family to feed, people they love getting hurt, a job to do to make money in life).

The problem lies with their religious leaders that try with all their might to break-down the bonds that unite the two people. They take the words of "holy" books and preach them out of context, in essence they preach their own interpretation of the book.

Misquoted and/or inaccurate readings of anything will change the meaning of a message. On top of that, HOW something is spoken can also change the meaning of even the simplest of phrases: A raised voice, An inflection, A cocked eyebrow is sometimes all that's needed to change a message of tollerence into a message of war.

All it needs are people who are willing to look to someone to "help" guide their lives with the promise of something better or a leader whos finger is pointing at someone other than them with blame for the wrongs or short-comings in their own life.

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leejo

It's not just religious leaders who do this. There are plenty of race-baiting politicians in this country who drive a wedge between people for their own gain. Seems to me this isn't a religious issue at all. Seems to me that neo-nazis and terrorists and divisive religious leaders and race-baiting or class-warfare politicians, and pirates in business are all basically guilty of the same evil. They often wrap their language in populist phrases, but their message is about some form of destruction. It's their center of gravity. It's not hope, or the future, or possibilities. It's anger, and justice, and payback.

We all do it sometimes. These guys are the pros.

TeflonDon

I will open with a quote:

"I want to see young people who are as committed to the cause of Jesus Christ as the young people are to the cause of Islam. I want to see them radically laying down their lives for the gospel, as they are over in Pakistan and Israel and Palestine."
- Pastor Becky Fischer


Simple WIKI search (we all do it); the more recognizeable of them:

1. Irish Republican Army

2. Klu Klux Clan

3. National Liberation Front of Tripura

4. Christian Identity & Aryan Nation

5. Lambs of Christ

6. Army of God

7. Lebanese Forces

8. George Habash, "Terrorism's Christian Godfather"

9. American Coalition of Life Activists

10. Eric Robert Rudolph also known as the Olympic Park Bomber


Some recent major events involving Christians:

1. Bosnian Genocide of Muslims in 1995.

2. Sabra and Shatila massacre

3. September 11, 2006 David McMenemy attempted a suicide bombing of a women's clinic in Davenport, Iowa after scouting targets throughout the Midwest. It was later revealed that the targeted clinic did not perform or make referrals for abortions.

4. According to NAF, since 1977 in the United States and Canada, property crimes committed against abortion providers have included 41 bombings, 173 arsons, 91 attempted bombings or arsons, 619 bomb threats, 1630 incidents of trespassing, 1264 incidents of vandalism, and 100 attacks with butyric acid ("stink bombs").[8] The first clinic arson occurred in Oregon in March 1976 and the first bombing occurred in February 1978 in Ohio.[13] More recent incidents have included:[5]

5. September 11, 2006 David McMenemy attempted a suicide bombing of a women's clinic in Davenport, Iowa after scouting targets throughout the Midwest. It was later revealed that the targeted clinic did not perform or make referrals for abortions.

6. October 1, 2000: A Catholic priest drove his car into the Northern Illinois Health Clinic after learning that the FDA had approved the drug RU-486. He pulled out an ax before being shot at by a security guard.


Anti-gay violence in US ( Which I would argue stems directly from in-grained religous intolerance)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violenc...legal_violence

Some highlights:

On May 12, 2007, Roberto Duncanson was murdered in Brooklyn, New York. He was stabbed to death by Omar Willock, who claimed Duncanson had flirted with him.

On April 6, 2006, two American television producers, CBS Evening News senior producer Richard Jefferson and 48 Hours producer-researcher Ryan Smith, were beaten with a tire iron outside the Sunset Beach Bar on the Caribbean island of St. Maarten by a group of four men and two women. The attack left Smith unable to speak properly, having suffered a skull fracture and brain damage.

On June 30, 2005, Yishai Shlisel, a Haredi Jew stabbed three marchers in a gay pride parade in Jerusalem, Israel, claiming he acted on behalf of God.

On March 11, 2005, Jason Gage -- an openly gay man -- was murdered in his Waterloo, Iowa apartment by an assailant who claimed Gage had made advances...

On January 28, 2005, Ronnie Paris, a three-year-old African American child died due to brain injuries resulting from abuse by his father. According to his mother and other relatives, Ronnie Paris, Jr., would slam his son into walls and force him to "slap-box" because he was concerned the child was gay and feared his son would grow up a sissy.

------------------

There are a lot of examples. You can't really compare it to the widespread and systematic suicide bombings in the Middle East, but given the resources and coordination, some of these groups would give the extremist muslims a run for their money.

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INSUNABULA

Well now you've changed the arguement to encompass broader terms Leejo. It's true that politicians and business leader use similar tactics to gain favourable public opinion for themselves.

And I have to disagree with you in part: It is a religous issue when discussing religously fostered motivational hate which is a foundation to the "nazi" and "white supremisist" movements and also a tool that is weilded by certain politicians all over the world. The simple fact being that for them, if in doubt - 'fall back on religion'

Certain sections of the public have an unerring ability to be swayed by words portrayed as 'religously profound' and the "pros" as you put it know how to turn a phrase to capture their attention, on this point it seems we agree.

However I seriously doubt that we are "ALL" guilty of it "sometimes". I can say with complete honesty that I have never stooped so low as to garner sympathetic opinion by demonifying an individual with an opposing view by using religion or "populist phrases".

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leejo

The "terorrist" organizations you listed have been responsible for how many acts of terrorism in the last ten years?

You list 6 incidents. I would call 1 and 2 acts of war (crimes). 3 and 5 are the same incident. OK 4 counts, but seriously, stink bombs? 6 is more a crime of passion, I'd say. On old man hears a report on the news and goes ape is not an act of terrorism in my mind.

I don't think linking crimes against homosexuals to Christianity is fair. People of all backgrounds have examples of homophobia and violence against gays.

So of your 6 "major events", I think we have two examples of terror. One by a guy who failed to do anything, and another by groups of people who commit property crimes. "Major events"?

I agree. So why did you just spend several paragraphs trying? And don't forget about Indonesia, Bali, Britain, Kenya, Nigeria, Italy, Greece, Scotland, and the USA when tallying up the bombings.

I am well aware that some nutty Christians and some nutty whites and some nutty Irish...Irish have committed acts of terror. The point is that we have in Islam a unique linkage of terror and a large political movement mixed with some state support. It's like comparing a tricycle to a jet.

Sir-Nerd

HAVE THE JEWS DONE ANYTHING OF THIS SORTS!!!

I'm am no being racist or discriminate with this. I just want to know.

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Men are basically smart or dumb and lazy or ambitious. The dumb and ambitious ones are dangerous and I get rid of them. The dumb and lazy ones I give mundane duties. The smart ambitious ones I put on my staff. The smart and lazy ones I make my commanders.

INSUNABULA

The state of Israel has committed many acts of violence in the name of the Jewish faith.

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brain21

I say it again, GAZA STRIP.

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"SIGN UP FOR THE NEW IRREGULARS SOLITAIRE PLATOON HERE! MUST BE PLAYED ON WIN2000 or 98!" - Axis
|TG-Irr| Brain21

Kerostasis

The jews are an interesting case. If you look 3000 years back in history, they were involved in lots of wars. If you look at the period 1 AD -- 1950 AD, they were almost exclusively the victims of these types of acts, never the perpetrators.

Then you have the modern period after the creation of the state of Israel: Israel has been under near constant attack basically since the day it was created. I think Israel had been a state for all of about 4 hours when 3 different Arab nations declared war on it for the first time. Israel has responded to these constant attacks with a fairly constant stream of counter-attacks, and depending on who you talk to, you may hear that they are innocent people trying only to secure their own safety, or you may hear that they are cruel evil racists bent on world domination.

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SharinganTH1422

"Evil" is completely subjective (Fubar basically said this, and I decided to summarise, because I completely agree).

Something that a famous Yoda once said: "Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering." Ok, it's Star Wars, but it's relevant, and absolutely true.

Indeed. I've been to the USA, FOX and CNN are not news, it's more like dramatised propaganda, and TBH what we get here is not much better.

True that people are easy to mould, and again, much of this argument is based on people's subjective experiences. Someone that lives in a predominantly white area of the USA, watching CNN everyday, will have a different opinion to an Asian (that's South Asian, like what you would call "Indians" (Not Native Americans, the other type of Indians, like Russell Peters) in the US) living in the UK.

It's due to the freedom we have, like the freedom of speech everyone is expressing right now. There will always be rebellion in a tolerant system.

So drugs that ruin lives and that are funding terrorism and murder...you think that's OK?

I'm guessing you got this out of a textbook, or something like that right? Because it's not factual.

Neo-Nazis that have crosses tattooed on the back of their heads...I've had many confrontations with people like this, my dad was threatened by a skinhead while the whole family was at a shopping centre, when my mum went into a bar to ask to use a phone to phone the police and tell them people of our situation (almost all of them white), they simply laughed and jeered. It ended well (not for the guy that was threatening us), and I'm not trying to get sympathy or anything like that, but there's a lot of these type of people out there, that will attack others, simply for the colour of their skin/their religion (my dad and I have a clear sign of our religion). Now they may not run into a building and blow up the place, but saying that there are no racist/extremist Christians is an ignorant statement. In Eastern Europe, and even Russia, large parts of the Government are made up of Christian extremists, where violence against refugees/immigrants from the Middle East is accepted.

All religion is at fault? I'm not sure what the % is but quite a lot of the world's population believe in some sort of "higher being" (to roughly quote (I think) the film Contact). I personally believe in God. I don't believe I should be killing people. People believe they should be killing us, but whatever. Someone said to try and say race doesn't matter in LA (guessing you mean like South, Central, right?) or religion doesn't matter in Israel. Well try and say all religion is at fault where I live and you'll probably have your legs ripped off (and that's not an exaggeration). Religion is a large part of every society, and it breeds much happiness, as well as contempt. If you have never had a religious experience before (and by this I don't mean having a hallucination that feels like an acid trip where you talk to God) you probably don't understand, and to be honest I'm not a super religious guy so these times are few and far between. Saying that all religions are at fault is something I think you should only be saying behind closed doors. Obviously it's your right to exercise free speech, but that could very well be considered offensive.

Apart from what's going on right now in Israel, have you seen the film Munich? Those Jewish assassins were painted in a "human" way, unlike the Muslims at the beginning, by Steven Spielberg, one of the most influential men in Hollywood, who happens to be Jewish. No-one knows how those Jewish hostages were treated, yet the Muslims were shown as animalistic and just, plain, cold-hearted, and the Jewish hostages were shown as brave, civilised men (Not saying that they were not. In my own words, we have no idea what happened with those hostages, or how those Muslims behaved/treated their captors, but their portrayal was very pro-Jewish). Of course, those Muslims were terrible men to do what they did, I don't sympathise with them at all, but the film is almost excusing what the Jewish assassins did, by showing their human/sensitive side, while the same cannot be said for the Muslims.

Misinterpretation is done often indeed, in every religion. That's how different branches of religion come into existence, and the fighting within them.

Now you're getting onto a different topic altogether, you're questioning the existence of God, so I'll just say my peace on this.

Faith = Gullibility according to you. Basically, what you are saying is that any kind of blind faith is irrational and naive. That is your opinion, and I completely understand it, for someone who is not religious at all (I'm guessing you're an atheist, although I won't ask you to reveal your beliefs, since it's obviously private, unless you don't mind), this is a given. I have come across a lot of stuff, and without sounding too much like the guy at the end of Blade Runner, I've seen things you wouldn't believe, heard things, first-hand accounts, of unexplainable things, been at places with extraordinary religious events. Most facts or assumptions in the world carry a certain amount of faith with them, and I see the existence of God as no different. In the religion that I belong to, the only "blind faith" that there is, is the belief in God. Everything else is about leading a good life. Now, before I start getting into preaching territory, I'd just like to address the actual issue.

There are ell over 6.5 billion people on this earth with lots of different views and ways of life. Unless you have the power and will to purge the world of all the "evil" in the world (according to you), then the world will remain a place with idiots. Something you perceive as evil and idiotic is subjective to your experiences. The media controls what we see and hear, and they have their own motives for this. Saying you should get rid of religions because it creates terrorism is like saying you should chop off every guy's ID of his manhood because it creates rape. It's a small minority of people that are extremist. I'm not a Muslim, but a lot of my friends are and I live in an ethnic area with a lot of Muslims and other Asians, as well as black people. Actually, sometimes it feels like white people are almost the minority . When I ask my Muslim friends about the extremists, they don't say that those extremists are Muslims. They are like a whole different religion to them. Neo-Nazis are alive and kicking (any "coloured" thing in their way). One of the local areas is now a constituent of the BNP (British National Party), who's plan is to get rid of all non-Caucasians, which is quite silly, because most of the white people here are not 100% Caucasian, due to different invasions/migrations throughout Britain's history.




Most of this is just my random thoughts, and its just splogded in a senseless order.

__________________
Anger is a gift - Malcolm X

...If you can dream--and not make dreams your master,
If you can think--and not make thoughts your aim;
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same...

Ikariam:
1) Uchiha - Nezyos [50:31] - Crystal glass
2) Hyuuga - Engoos [77:79] - Wine

Rincewind

This thread is broken. It wont let me go to page 5.

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~~ Veritas simplex oratio est ~~
No matter how far a wizard goes, he will always come back for his hat. --T. Pratchett

<---- You know you're getting old when you rely on your forum meta-data to remind you how old you are.

Required Reading for all TG sandboxers

SharinganTH1422

Me neither, I think this is the last page, since I posted the message above when it said there was 5 pages, when I couldn't click on the 5th page, and it ended up on the 4th page, so...

__________________
Anger is a gift - Malcolm X

...If you can dream--and not make dreams your master,
If you can think--and not make thoughts your aim;
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same...

Ikariam:
1) Uchiha - Nezyos [50:31] - Crystal glass
2) Hyuuga - Engoos [77:79] - Wine

Kerostasis

The system that counts how many posts are in a thread, and assigns the correct number of pages to them, has been consistently reporting a different number of posts from those actually displayed in the thread for awhile now. To be precise, ever since Mentholated disappeared. My guess is that he's been turned site-wide invisible, so all of his posts don't show up anymore, but they still raise the post-count of the thread so it gets an extra page before there are enough visible posts to actually fill that page.

If you're not sure whether or not you found the end of the thread, hit the reply button (not quick reply) and look down to the "review the thread" section which always shows the most recent X number of posts. If the last post there is the one you just finished reading, then you've found the last page, even if theres a button that says it takes you to another page.

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