TheSkudDestroyer

Yes, Khan, I see your point and I agree that to an extent the media has fueled this kinda of thing since Cho Seung Hui.

Also, to comment on what magnum said... I doubt the average person can logically react other than to run. But a person with military backround... Yes.

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|TG-6th|Skud
BMT Graduate - 320th Training Squadron, Flight 024 - MSgt Romero - "Kids no more!"
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Kerostasis

Scenario 1: The civvy closest to the shooter realizes the fastest way to stop him is to rush him, so he charges. The 28 people behind this guy realize the same thing, and they also charge.

Result 1: The shooter probably hits one or two of them on the way in, and then is taken down by the weight of the crowd. Potential large disaster limited to just a small disaster.

Scenario 2: The civvy closest to the shooter realizes the fastest way to stop him is to rush him, so he charges. The 28 people behind this guy go with the default human "panic" mode and run the other way.

Result 2: The shooter aims for the guy rushing him first, then goes back to picking off everybody else.

Basically, the "charge him" strategy only works if you can count on your "teammates" (so to speak) to back you up in the charge, and in the average crowd of people not trained for combat, you can't make that assumption. Your personal chances of surviving the encounter are maximized by adopting the "run the hell away" plan, unless you happen to have a weapon of your own handy.

Plane hijackings are a slightly different scenario, because there is no "run away" option since all the passengers are trapped on the plane. The old paradigm was that the hijackers would likely land eventually, so passengers who cooperated were likely to still be safely alive when that happened. The new paradigm of using hijacked planes as missiles basically ensures the death of all passengers aboard, making "cooperation" a much less appealing strategy and "fighting back" comparatively much better.

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El_Gringo_Grande

I would say only those with a particular military background. My bet is most squids would not be up for rushing the guy with a gun.

If I had a child with me I would first make sure my child was protected.

If my wife was with me I would first make sure my wife was protected.

Plus these are college kids. Kids. They barely know how to drive.

It ain't the movies.

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I’m not racists, I have republican friends. Radio show host.
- "The essence of tyranny is the denial of complexity". -Jacob Burkhardt
- "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds" - Emerson
- "People should not be afraid of it's government, government should be afraid of it's People." - Line from V for Vendetta
- If software were as unreliable as economic theory, there wouldn't be a plane made of anything other than paper that could get off the ground. Jim Fawcette

ScratchMonkey

I wonder if someone with a FPS video game background would be more likely to fight instead of flee. Isn't the military using FPS games to train recruits? I know when I first played Doom I'd jump out of my seat and across the room at the slightest problem. Now I can play with my cat asleep on my lap and not wake her up in a tense firefight. I'm wondering if some amount of that carries over into real life? (Yes, I know real bullets are different, but it's a question of psychology.)

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Steeler

I'm going to say something I've said before, even if people are tired of hearing it.
The fact is, we don't know very much about how or why this happened yet. Trying to apply one's politics or philosophy to a host of unknown factors is idle wankery. Not that we all don't enjoy a good wank now and then.

That being said, some discussion of panic and crowd behavior is pretty interesting.

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draeh

Wouldn't it be sad if he went off his meds because he could not afford them? I would find that more of a travesty than how or where he bought his guns.

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TheSkudDestroyer

Yes, Scratch, the Army uses Americas Army as a FPS recruiting tool

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|TG-6th|Skud
BMT Graduate - 320th Training Squadron, Flight 024 - MSgt Romero - "Kids no more!"
30 weeks Keesler AFB, 1W031 - Weather

Tarenth

America's Army is a funny recruiting tool since the thing you do most in that game is die. -.-

Personally I'd like to think I'd be one of the people who would charge an attacker in such a situation. It'd definately be more pro-active than using my body as a bullet shield like that teacher in Columbine was praised for doing. All in all, I don't think a lot of people can grasp the reality of such a situation and react rationally at the onset. Its just like water buffalo and lions. When charged the buffalo will scatter, but given time they form up and can beat the crap out of the pride if pressed.

On a completely different track: I believe all campus grounds except for police and military facilities follow a total 'gun free' area rule. That means even with a CCL if you're packing heat without a badge then you get a free ticket to jail regardless of your rational.

Also, I was allowed to pack heat in high school. It was both saddening at the time and amusing thinking back to it. Because I went to a high school with an NJROTC program we had an armory stocked with sabers (for the officer dress uniform) and M1 Garand rifles (NATO Decommisioned). We also had a locked ammo locker with several clips that the NSI and later ANSI had with him at all times (the NSI retired after the first year I was there).

Why did we have an ammo locker in our armory? Well the Student Armory officer was required to know how to recommision all the rifles in the armory as part of his training. So all those decommisioned rifles could be fired if needed. Also, the school was relatively new and intrenched quite deeply in red/blue gang territory. It was to the point you'd think we wore uniforms because no one would wear anything even remotely resembling those colors including jeans (yes...no blue jeans in a highschool...freaky). A loose handgun would be found on a student wankster (gangster wannabe) every few days and usually on the really stupid ones like the people who think wearing their pants around their knees and putting the gun in the waist band are a smart combination.

Anyhow...the NJROTC drill and marksmanship team (marksmanship was with air rifles on grounds and with M1s and M16s at competitions on military bases) would have drills where we'd split our unit platoon into squads and cover the major classrom buildings. Kinda fun squatting behind a corner with a rifle watching the doorway while your squad leader was in the center of the building calling for sitreps. On the occasional fire drill the SOP would be for the NJROTC platoon to do the guiding and lining up, the teachers stayed near the classrooms to prevent looting (again, another problem) and the Drill/Marksmanship teams would again be armed and stations around the stadium prison guard style. That rational was that a large crowd of students would be a good chance for someone to do the spray and pray slaughter or start a fight/kill another student in the confusion. Usually the sound of the metal rifle butt on the concrete (loud crack) was enough to stop fights that broke out, but the armory officer would work on the rifles and the ANSI would stand by with live ammo incase things turned ugly.


Ah yes...High School was such fun. Compared to that, college campus shootings just aren't as exciting or surprising. I think at least 20 people in my senior year were killed to gang related activities in highschool. Also, roughly 40% of the women were emancipated, married, and/or pregnant by the end of senior year.

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chris934

I don't think it is a matter of why it happened or where the guns came from. Rather it is a matter of why we are even shocked. This kind of violence and horror is simply part of the human condition. We can do things to make ourselves safer but we have to realize that things like this are inevitable.Unfortunately the only time that tragedies like this will not happen is when people are all dead and gone. Sometimes you just have to sit back and be happy that you are still around, because things like this show how fragile everything really is.

WalkaboutTigger

If I can embarrass Scratch for just a moment...

You see, one night Scratch was just sitting down to eat when someone stole his car. The way I heard it, he leapt over his living room table, grabbed his truck keys and proceeded to chase after the 10851 suspects. He attempted to run them off the road several times and finally caused them to run off the road. At this point the suspects fled on foot. When law enforcement officers arrived on the scene, again, the way I heard it, one of the responding officers asked Scratch what would have happened if the suspects had had a gun to which Scratch replied something like, "I would have used my truck to turn my car into a horse shoe."

Did Doom have anything to do with this? Possibly. But Scratch's mother is known for saying things like, when an erratic driver cut her off in traffic and proceeded to cut off several other motorists in an effort to get down the road, "The things you see when you don't have a gun..."

CingularDuality

Sorry, man, but I think someone was blowing smoke up your butt... Part of the demilitarization of M1 rifles is to actually weld a slit along the length of the barrel that is covered by the stock. The chamber is also filled with metal. The receiver still functions properly, but there's no way a bullet is going to go anywhere in a drill rifle without a new barrel. I too, was in NJROTC in the 80s and 90s. All of our M1s and Springfields had welded barrels and chambers, as did the rifles of every other NJROTC unit at the field meets and drill comps that we went to.

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CingularDuality

In Texas, it is no longer a gray area. It's in black and white. If you're not a member of a gang, if you're not committing a crime (other than a traffic offense), if you're not legally prohibited from having a gun, and if it's concealed, you may carry a handgun in your car. Period. End of story.

Here's the black and white: http://tlo2.tlc.state.tx.us/statutes...0.htm#46.02.00

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TurkishDelight

There are few better things to do than walk into a "Natural Food Store", with a USP .45 on your hip

The looks alone are priceless!

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Tarenth

If you're carrying a firearm to look cool or to shock other people, then you need to lock that thing up and think twice about wearing it. Guns are not toys or used to scare people into submission. They're used to inflict bodily harm upon others. If you think otherwise and have a different mindset when you wield one then you shouldn't be wielding one.

As for the recommisioning of rifles? Its quite possible that I'm mistaken. I was never the armory officer since I declined a commision after my first year because I thought I was going to relocate. I actually ended highschool as an E6 Drill vet (Cadet Petty Officer 1st Class). However one of the parts of the annual inspection by the regional commander was an inspection of the armory and drill team. We'd form up outside the armory with rifles at port and do the whole inspection deal (operate the bolt, look down to make sure the chamber was clear, and hand off the rifle reciting our seriel number when asked) with the difference being that the bolts were all welded shut like you mentioned. Part of that inspection also included the commander touring the armory for order and cleanliness and handing off one of our show rifles (never used for practice since we dropped the damned things on concrete so much) to the Armory Officer saying "This rifle in inopperable. Fix it". The armory officer would then go into the armory and close the door and return a few minute later with the same rifle and demonstrate for the regional commander that the bolt now opperated before handing it to the commander with a dummy round (or what I assume was a dummy round since I doubt they'd allow live ammo in the open like that even with a Naval Officer present) so that the commander could chamber the round before removing it and handing it back. They would then take the rifle back into the armory, close the door, and return with it again to demonstrate for the commander that the bolt was now inopperable. I remember all of this because our armory officer was a dick and made us stand there for the entire 15-20 minute inspection at present arms for the armory inspection after the drill inspection. In comparison spinning the damned things was cake. I'm pretty sure there was no reg for us being in present arms, but like I said...he was a dick.

I'm pretty sure that the barrel can be swapped out and the welding job, depending on how its done, can be undone with the right know how. I remember another funny incident when we were invited to the national JROTC competition in Pensacola. Our unit marched into the nearby airport with the drill team in the front with rifles (again, show rifles) in winter blues and formed up in the foyer as our ANSI checked us in. Except they wouldn't let us put our rifles into the bags we brought for them and check them in as luggage. Something about not letting firearms aboard the plane (this was post 9/11 in the spring of '02). So the ANSI marched us all outside and we handed the rifles to the drill commander (who was the armory officer) who then took all 16 of them with his assistant back to the van we came in. 45 minutes later the drill team all had identicle bags of 'assorted parts' slung over one shoulder that they checked in as carry on luggage. Yes, our NJROTC drill team smuggled disassembled rifles aboard an airliner because the company wouldn't let us lock them up fully assembled as check in luggage.

That probably would've been the most memorable experience of that trip if it wasn't for the fact that on the way back I was flagged as carrying a 'dangerous chemical agent' in Texas and strip searched before they determined that the 'chemical agent' was makeup from my seating partner.

Very cold room. -.-

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My sanity is not in question...
It was a confirmed casualty some time ago.

El_Gringo_Grande

I agree with Tarenth.

This kind of attitude gives good gun owners a bad image and plays directly into the stereotype the anti-gun people use to enact more gun control laws.

__________________
I’m not racists, I have republican friends. Radio show host.
- "The essence of tyranny is the denial of complexity". -Jacob Burkhardt
- "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds" - Emerson
- "People should not be afraid of it's government, government should be afraid of it's People." - Line from V for Vendetta
- If software were as unreliable as economic theory, there wouldn't be a plane made of anything other than paper that could get off the ground. Jim Fawcette