OK, how a tazer can save/work... - Page 5

ScratchMonkey · 03-01-2008, 08:06 AM

The Tazer's value is that the recipient of the shot might survive it, not that you can indiscriminately use it as an attitude adjuster.

Switch · 03-01-2008, 08:50 AM

A taser is to be used in place of a gun when the situation permits... so you shouldn't be using the taser unless you would be justified in firing your side arm.

The less the lethal device isn't meant to be used in a less than lethal situation like making a guy comply with "lay down and shut the #$%^ up". Unless it would be ok to fire your gun and force him to lay down with a bullet then its not ok to use the taser.

As far as taser and heart attacks, people talking about plaques have no idea about how the heart works. The heart generates its own electrical signal that starts in one region and then travels through the cardiac tissue to the remainder of the heart. When shocked this smooth transition is interrupted and you can get the heart spasming out of control hence heart attack..... tasers and blood clots are not related. Its the interruption of a normal cardiac rhythm that can make tasers deadly.

Unless you're willing to say that shock paddles have no effect on the heart (you know, the kind that are used to restart the heart of a person who has died) you can't say that an electrical jolt from a taser will have no effect on the heart.

Atomic Dog · 03-01-2008, 09:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ScratchMonkey

The Tazer's value is that the recipient of the shot might survive it, not that you can indiscriminately use it as an attitude adjuster.

QFT

**Tarenth** · 03-01-2008, 11:51 AM

There probably are some incidents where tasers are used as an attitude adjuster and those incidents usually end with a law suit and the officer getting reprimanded and being noted at fault. However, there are plenty more incidents where its used to force compliance from a noncompliant perp which gets toted as improper use incorrectly. I think I've said it before and I still hold to it that I believe in the 'idiot clause'. If someone is acting like an idiot (and I mean REALLY acting like an idiot) then they should be prepared for the concequences when you start refusing to be compliant when faced with either security or the police. That is, of course, not to be interpreted as 'bend over and take it', it just means you need to be thoughtful in how you act and come across to others. Acting stupid shouldn't be an excuse to act stupid.

As for MIs? You've skipped a few steps there actually. A disruption of the heart's electrical pulse would cause Atrial Fibrillation (or A-Fib) which would then result in an erratic heart beat. This could either lower or raise blood pressure due to how the erratic beats manifests (faster or slower). A-fib does increase the risk of heart attack and stroke, but only if risk factors are already present. A myocardial infarction (aka MI aka heart attack) is when blood no longer gets to the heart due to a blockage or rupture and causes cell death with the lack of oxygen.

All of that is very dependent on the type of taser used I believe. Some tasers (see Magnum's famous "Magnum v Taser" video) have two electrodes that arc the charge at a very shallow depth across the body. This means there is very little chance, if any, of the charge to reach the heart and cause any of those problems. Not none of course, but its such a low chance it would be like winning the lottery of bad luck. I think maybe one or two deaths have been attributed partly towards that and its usually with multiple tasers fired at the same time (multiple arcs) and people with high risk factors and preexsisting heart conditions.

On taser use: requiring tasers have the same rules of use as deadly force is silly. If that were the case then there really would be no point to using the taser since you might as well use your sidearm. Deadly force means deadly force, not 'lethal in less tha 1% of use' force.

To Long bow and additional training. I think we've had a misconnect somewhere. To my knowledge from what I know from the local PD and a few other departments abroad according to my old CJ professor is that officers already get education and training before being issued a taser. It just like how you need to be trained in gun use before you can carry a gun. They are taught all of this information already and in many cases are tested and have to get certified before they can carry and use the taser. I do believe that quite a few of the certification processes require that you be tased at the end so that you can experience it for yourself. By the way, it should be noted that not one death or serious injury has been recorded with taser use as part of the training and certification process. Then again, you probably aren't on drugs when you're trained and they ask you if you have a preexsisting heart condition. The point I was, laboriously, trying to make was that they already HAVE training and education on taser use before using the taser so situations where tasers are used have all of that rolled into it as given. How will additional training and education affect how the taser is used when there is already comprehensive training in place? If a taser is being used then that 'stop and think' moment you talk about has already come and gone. It passed when verbal confrontation and then threat of force failed to force compliance.

Generally you aren't just tased out of the blue. You are first asked to comply. Then you are told to comply. Then you are threatened to comply. Then you are forced to comply. Kinda like that line from the movie The Rock. Asked as a friend, ordered by a superior officer, then commanded by a man with a gun. If they aren't listening to you when you point a weapon in their direction then they aren't going to listen no matter how many times you ask them again. Actually, once the threat is made if you do not follow through with it you actually lose ground because they will think you don't have what it takes to enforce the promised punishment. That last tidbit isn't a criminal justice idea, its actually a parenting one.

Switch · 03-01-2008, 02:20 PM

You are only required to comply with lawful orders -- police are notorious for thinking that they can tell any one to do anything and people who refuse are breaking the law -- you are not legally required to obey an UNLAWFUL order. They then think its ok to use a taser just for compliance and bam.... torture time begins!

**TurkishDelight** · 03-01-2008, 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Switch

As far as taser and heart attacks, people talking about plaques have no idea about how the heart works. The heart generates its own electrical signal that starts in one region and then travels through the cardiac tissue to the remainder of the heart. When shocked this smooth transition is interrupted and you can get the heart spasming out of control hence heart attack..... tasers and blood clots are not related. Its the interruption of a normal cardiac rhythm that can make tasers deadly.

Unless you're willing to say that shock paddles have no effect on the heart (you know, the kind that are used to restart the heart of a person who has died) you can't say that an electrical jolt from a taser will have no effect on the heart.

Thank you for showing everone one, that you have NO idea what you are talking about!

Tarenth, I think you are almost right on the money about Taser use.

I can't beleive that people still think HA's are when the heart stops! No, thats asystole

There are many different heart rythms, many of them create no real blood pressure at all.

Like I said 50,000 volts here, I seemed to have made it out ok

Only side effect was increased muscle contraction...My heart didn't explode like people seem to want to believe...

People for the last time!

Amperage stops the heart, amperage kills. Amperage=Current! Not Voltage!

Plus your body has like 123,657,543 Ohms of resistance! What does that make your voltage and amperage then?

Not much...

**Xen** · 03-01-2008, 06:38 PM

Ok odviously you didn't read everything I said about clots, the violent muscle contractions that the 50k volts causes is what could cause clots to dislodge, which then travel to the heart and cause blockage, which then causes your MI. The clots could be down in the legs but when you get Tazered, your leg muscles, along with other extremitities, contract uncontrollablely. So, the Shock itself doesn't cause the Heart Attack, it's the cascade effect that a pre-exsisting condition could present to you, that can cause death. The problem is, going into a situation, you don't know if that condition exsists.

**TurkishDelight** · 03-01-2008, 06:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xen

Ok odviously you didn't read everything I said about clots, the violent muscle contractions that the 50k volts causes is what could cause clots to dislodge, which then travel to the heart and cause blockage, which then causes your MI. The clots could be down in the legs but when you get Tazered, your leg muscles, along with other extremitities, contract uncontrollablely. So, the Shock itself doesn't cause the Heart Attack, it's the cascade effect that a pre-exsisting condition could present to you, that can cause death. The problem is, going into a situation, you don't know if that condition exsists.

How many "Proven and Documented" cases of this have happened?

**INSUNABULA** · 03-01-2008, 06:49 PM

Okey guys, as with everything in life - all in moderation and consideration.

That's all it takes for things to be done right.

**Xen** · 03-02-2008, 12:08 AM

I'm just stating a possible MOI for Tazer deaths that should be taken into account. Not every Cop is an EMT like myself, so they don't think about how it effects the body. I'm just stating what could cause deaths, from tazer use. And how the Tazer is not the direct, but indirect cause of death. It's like jumping off a cliff, the fall isn't what killed you, it's the sudden stop at the bottom. Tazers can be the Fall, and the MI is the sudden stop at the bottom.

**TheFatKidDeath** · 03-02-2008, 12:59 AM

I was just at a sports bar watching the UFC Silva/Henderson fight when somebody got into a fight right behind where I was sitting. Ironic huh? Needless to say the tazers came out by the bouncers and it looked like someone was using a wielding torch in the room. The cops finally arrived and hauled the guy away. There must have been eight cops taking away one man.

I'm of the opinion if tazers are used (and I question how effective they really for compliance) they should only be used by trained law enforcement and not by john q public.

ScratchMonkey · 03-02-2008, 02:00 AM

The bar fight actually suggests another value for Tazers: They can be used in confined spaces without worry that they'll penetrate walls and kill someone in the next room.

ScratchMonkey · 03-02-2008, 02:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TurkishDelight

Plus your body has like 123,657,543 Ohms of resistance! What does that make your voltage and amperage then?

Not much...

TD, you're partially correct. Where you measure the impedance is critical. The skin has about 100-500 megohms of resistance. But the circulatory system has only 100 ohms. If you puncture the skin, the big outer resistance is bypassed and small voltages can generate deadly amounts of current. There's a freak accident like this on record with the Navy. Be very careful when working inside your computer with the power on. If you prick your fingers on low-voltage circuits, you place yourself in considerably more danger.

http://www.darwinawards.com/darwin/darwin1999-50.html

Do Tazers puncture? Even if they don't, shooting someone who's bleeding might be pretty hazardous.

**Long Bow** · 03-03-2008, 10:14 AM

Tarenth, thanks for the info and the respectfull reply

I think we're on the same page just from slightly different perspectives. I assumed there was extensive training for tasers in place. As long as the training stays current with new research and findings things should be good.

As for officers who over step their bonds. I don't think it matters what equipment they use or have available. It comes down to them personally and I don't think restricting all officers based on the actions of a few is a good course of action.

**CingularDuality** · 03-03-2008, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ScratchMonkey

The Tazer's value is that the recipient of the shot might survive it, not that you can indiscriminately use it as an attitude adjuster.

Wrong. The Taser's value is that it stops people, normally without causing any injury. It's a compliance tool intended to prevent the types of injuries that police have long taken black eyes for... Rodney King might not have enjoyed the evening, but the next day he would be perfectly fine if the LAPD had been using Tasers instead of billies and maglights. (Let's not argue whether or not that would be a good thing if those police were still on the street.) People have repeatedly implied that it's abusive to tase a non-compliant actor instead of dogpiling on them, dragging them out of an auditorium or jerking and pulling them out of a vehicle. The fact is that Tasers cause much less injury than when a police officer is forced to put hands on someone. The fact that there have been some VERY well publicized and unfortunate abuses and some tragic deaths doesn't change that...

Quote:

Originally Posted by ScratchMonkey

Do Tazers puncture? Even if they don't, shooting someone who's bleeding might be pretty hazardous.

Yes, it's a key element to their design. I'm surprised that you're so involved in this discussion when you don't even know what a Taser is or what it does. Sorry for the tactless wording, but I really think you should go to Taser's website and spend a few minutes watching the videos that explain how their device works.

03-01-2008, 08:06 AM	#61 (permalink)
ScratchMonkey Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: San Pablo, California Posts: 3,506	Re: OK, how a tazer can save/work... The Tazer's value is that the recipient of the shot might survive it, not that you can indiscriminately use it as an attitude adjuster. __________________ Sig

03-01-2008, 08:50 AM	#62 (permalink)
Switch Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: NJ Posts: 1,005	Re: OK, how a tazer can save/work... A taser is to be used in place of a gun when the situation permits... so you shouldn't be using the taser unless you would be justified in firing your side arm. The less the lethal device isn't meant to be used in a less than lethal situation like making a guy comply with "lay down and shut the #$%^ up". Unless it would be ok to fire your gun and force him to lay down with a bullet then its not ok to use the taser. As far as taser and heart attacks, people talking about plaques have no idea about how the heart works. The heart generates its own electrical signal that starts in one region and then travels through the cardiac tissue to the remainder of the heart. When shocked this smooth transition is interrupted and you can get the heart spasming out of control hence heart attack..... tasers and blood clots are not related. Its the interruption of a normal cardiac rhythm that can make tasers deadly. Unless you're willing to say that shock paddles have no effect on the heart (you know, the kind that are used to restart the heart of a person who has died) you can't say that an electrical jolt from a taser will have no effect on the heart. __________________ \|TG\|Switch Better known as: That noob who crashed the chopper. That noob who ran over the mine. That noob who TK'd me with a sniper rifle. That noob who hit that APC at 300m with light AT! Our APC...

03-01-2008, 11:51 AM	#64 (permalink)
Tarenth Join Date: May 2006 Location: California Posts: 2,087	Re: OK, how a tazer can save/work... There probably are some incidents where tasers are used as an attitude adjuster and those incidents usually end with a law suit and the officer getting reprimanded and being noted at fault. However, there are plenty more incidents where its used to force compliance from a noncompliant perp which gets toted as improper use incorrectly. I think I've said it before and I still hold to it that I believe in the 'idiot clause'. If someone is acting like an idiot (and I mean REALLY acting like an idiot) then they should be prepared for the concequences when you start refusing to be compliant when faced with either security or the police. That is, of course, not to be interpreted as 'bend over and take it', it just means you need to be thoughtful in how you act and come across to others. Acting stupid shouldn't be an excuse to act stupid. As for MIs? You've skipped a few steps there actually. A disruption of the heart's electrical pulse would cause Atrial Fibrillation (or A-Fib) which would then result in an erratic heart beat. This could either lower or raise blood pressure due to how the erratic beats manifests (faster or slower). A-fib does increase the risk of heart attack and stroke, but only if risk factors are already present. A myocardial infarction (aka MI aka heart attack) is when blood no longer gets to the heart due to a blockage or rupture and causes cell death with the lack of oxygen. All of that is very dependent on the type of taser used I believe. Some tasers (see Magnum's famous "Magnum v Taser" video) have two electrodes that arc the charge at a very shallow depth across the body. This means there is very little chance, if any, of the charge to reach the heart and cause any of those problems. Not none of course, but its such a low chance it would be like winning the lottery of bad luck. I think maybe one or two deaths have been attributed partly towards that and its usually with multiple tasers fired at the same time (multiple arcs) and people with high risk factors and preexsisting heart conditions. On taser use: requiring tasers have the same rules of use as deadly force is silly. If that were the case then there really would be no point to using the taser since you might as well use your sidearm. Deadly force means deadly force, not 'lethal in less tha 1% of use' force. To Long bow and additional training. I think we've had a misconnect somewhere. To my knowledge from what I know from the local PD and a few other departments abroad according to my old CJ professor is that officers already get education and training before being issued a taser. It just like how you need to be trained in gun use before you can carry a gun. They are taught all of this information already and in many cases are tested and have to get certified before they can carry and use the taser. I do believe that quite a few of the certification processes require that you be tased at the end so that you can experience it for yourself. By the way, it should be noted that not one death or serious injury has been recorded with taser use as part of the training and certification process. Then again, you probably aren't on drugs when you're trained and they ask you if you have a preexsisting heart condition. The point I was, laboriously, trying to make was that they already HAVE training and education on taser use before using the taser so situations where tasers are used have all of that rolled into it as given. How will additional training and education affect how the taser is used when there is already comprehensive training in place? If a taser is being used then that 'stop and think' moment you talk about has already come and gone. It passed when verbal confrontation and then threat of force failed to force compliance. Generally you aren't just tased out of the blue. You are first asked to comply. Then you are told to comply. Then you are threatened to comply. Then you are forced to comply. Kinda like that line from the movie The Rock. Asked as a friend, ordered by a superior officer, then commanded by a man with a gun. If they aren't listening to you when you point a weapon in their direction then they aren't going to listen no matter how many times you ask them again. Actually, once the threat is made if you do not follow through with it you actually lose ground because they will think you don't have what it takes to enforce the promised punishment. That last tidbit isn't a criminal justice idea, its actually a parenting one. __________________ My sanity is not in question... It was a confirmed casualty some time ago. \|TG\|Tarenth Battlefield 2142 Mirra World of Warcraft Light, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to hide the bodies of the people I had to kill because they ticked me off.

03-01-2008, 02:20 PM	#65 (permalink)
Switch Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: NJ Posts: 1,005	Re: OK, how a tazer can save/work... You are only required to comply with lawful orders -- police are notorious for thinking that they can tell any one to do anything and people who refuse are breaking the law -- you are not legally required to obey an UNLAWFUL order. They then think its ok to use a taser just for compliance and bam.... torture time begins! __________________ \|TG\|Switch Better known as: That noob who crashed the chopper. That noob who ran over the mine. That noob who TK'd me with a sniper rifle. That noob who hit that APC at 300m with light AT! Our APC...

03-01-2008, 06:38 PM	#67 (permalink)
Xen Join Date: Mar 2005 Age: 34 Posts: 540	Re: OK, how a tazer can save/work... Ok odviously you didn't read everything I said about clots, the violent muscle contractions that the 50k volts causes is what could cause clots to dislodge, which then travel to the heart and cause blockage, which then causes your MI. The clots could be down in the legs but when you get Tazered, your leg muscles, along with other extremitities, contract uncontrollablely. So, the Shock itself doesn't cause the Heart Attack, it's the cascade effect that a pre-exsisting condition could present to you, that can cause death. The problem is, going into a situation, you don't know if that condition exsists. __________________ Curiosity is going to kill this Cat.

03-01-2008, 06:49 PM	#69 (permalink)
INSUNABULA Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Toronto Age: 30 Posts: 1,479	Re: OK, how a tazer can save/work... Okey guys, as with everything in life - all in moderation and consideration. That's all it takes for things to be done right. __________________ * INSERT RIBBONS HERE *

03-02-2008, 12:08 AM	#70 (permalink)
Xen Join Date: Mar 2005 Age: 34 Posts: 540	Re: OK, how a tazer can save/work... I'm just stating a possible MOI for Tazer deaths that should be taken into account. Not every Cop is an EMT like myself, so they don't think about how it effects the body. I'm just stating what could cause deaths, from tazer use. And how the Tazer is not the direct, but indirect cause of death. It's like jumping off a cliff, the fall isn't what killed you, it's the sudden stop at the bottom. Tazers can be the Fall, and the MI is the sudden stop at the bottom. __________________ Curiosity is going to kill this Cat.

03-02-2008, 12:59 AM	#71 (permalink)
TheFatKidDeath Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Santa Monica, CA Age: 39 Posts: 2,526	Re: OK, how a tazer can save/work... I was just at a sports bar watching the UFC Silva/Henderson fight when somebody got into a fight right behind where I was sitting. Ironic huh? Needless to say the tazers came out by the bouncers and it looked like someone was using a wielding torch in the room. The cops finally arrived and hauled the guy away. There must have been eight cops taking away one man. I'm of the opinion if tazers are used (and I question how effective they really for compliance) they should only be used by trained law enforcement and not by john q public. __________________ \|TG-9th\| TheFatKidDeath "Born to Party, Forced to Work." http://www.theonion.com/content/node/55640 - Check me out on The Onion http://www.theonion.com/content/vide...ssfully_avoids - I'm on the local news!

03-02-2008, 02:00 AM	#72 (permalink)
ScratchMonkey Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: San Pablo, California Posts: 3,506	Re: OK, how a tazer can save/work... The bar fight actually suggests another value for Tazers: They can be used in confined spaces without worry that they'll penetrate walls and kill someone in the next room. __________________ Sig

03-03-2008, 10:14 AM	#74 (permalink)
Long Bow Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Ontario, Canada Age: 29 Posts: 1,062	Re: OK, how a tazer can save/work... Tarenth, thanks for the info and the respectfull reply I think we're on the same page just from slightly different perspectives. I assumed there was extensive training for tasers in place. As long as the training stays current with new research and findings things should be good. As for officers who over step their bonds. I don't think it matters what equipment they use or have available. It comes down to them personally and I don't think restricting all officers based on the actions of a few is a good course of action. __________________

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