Xen

I think it's a matter of what most people think of when the word Tazer is used. The black square with two electrodes at one end, arcing volts between them. Not, the yellow futuristic gun looking thing, with 2 black sqaures at the end that house the lauchable electrode darts attached to thin wires. The darts penetrate, the black box is just touched to the skin.

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CingularDuality

Right, but the black square with arcing pain is not and has never been called a Taser. It's a silly stun gun that doesn't do much of anything except hurt you.

The Taser, as seen we've all seen in the videos, will completely and temporarily incapacitate you.

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Tarenth

That falls back on ignorant and wrongful thinking on the side of the public and/or perp. If you treat an officer in such a manner during a lawful order because you believe its an unlawful order then the officer will react in a way that follows noncompliance with a lawful order. You then get a disconnect because the perp is then thinking they are being abused unlawfully while in reality they just took a lawful situation and thought it was unlawful on their own. Its actually a very dangerous ground to tread because of all those 'suspicion' and 'public safety' exceptions to the rules that people fall into. Respectful and not subserviant is the way to play the game and exactly how you would want to be treated if the roles were switched. If you have a problem with how things were done then get through the situation and question what happened after danger has passed. Acting defiant when they've drawn a sidearm because you've acted disrepectfully and threatening is neither the proper time or place to do so.

TheFatKid: Bouncers in a sports bar are private security and they acted accordingly. Bars are private venues in public places and generally have rules of agreeable conduct readily avalible. One of those rules always is to not act in a disorderly manner. Bouncers are the visible threat to all patrons that if you violate those rules you WILL be stopped. Its like having mall security point a gun at your back and follow you around to make sure you don't shoplift. You start a fight they probably aren't going to ask you quietly to leave, they already did when you entered the doors and everytime you walked pass a bouncer or employee. It isn't adressed directly to you most of the time, but the message is there. Whipping out the stunguns to resolve the situation and then throwing the perps out is all within the limitations placed with private security. They may act in any way within the pervue of their employeer as long as it is approved conduct.

Now if the 8 police officers (who probably were all in the area since sports bars and places that serve alcoholic drinks as sole refreshment are hotbeds of activity) all arrived on the scene and tasered the guy because he was still drunk it would be more in line against the negitive parts of law enforcement using tasers and of course, pure fiction.

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Switch

You are right in saying that a civilian or perp who does not know his rights may certainly create a bad situation for himself if refusing a lawful order, but a well informed civilian who asserts his rights is on solid ground when stating them clearly and respectfully.

I also agree that it is often in a persons best interest to acquiesce to a police officer even when the officer is wrong, since pissing off a cop can cause all sorts of problems even if the officer is acting illegally.

That said, I am a libertarian and I would prefer to assert my rights as I know them and as they are written into the constitution and create the precedents required to allow others to feel comfortable with their sovereignty. It may not be apparent if you follow the fear mongering politicians who keep talking about the threats to our liberty brought on by outside forces, but the greatest threat to the liberty of an American individual comes from apathy towards the government, an organization that is always attempting to expand its power by reducing the rights of individuals. People need to be aware of their rights and be vigilant in asserting them. Occasionally this may cause disputes between individuals, but all persons are united when they make sure to keep the power of their government in check.

I have at one time or another asked an officer the following questions:
Why have I been stopped?
Am I free to go?
Am I being detained?
Is that a lawful order?
Am I legally required to disclose the information you are requesting?
Why would you want to search me?

I have also told officers the following:
You do not have permission to search me/my car/my house.
Sorry about the noise, we'll be sure to tone it down, but no, you can't come in.
No you can't see my drivers license, I'm not driving.

Now, while many of you may have created some type of disparaging image about me in your head as some kind of anti authority punk I'd like to point out:

I've never used an illicit drug.
(and i dont mean ive never been caught, i mean i've never smoked pot, done coke, used extasy, etc etc -- and not because I think they're bad, but simply because I prefer not to find out that I like them)
I've never been arrested for a crime (though I did get arrested for a seat belt ticket once, fun story)
I am a first generation American, the first US born in my family, my family came here with very little, close to nothing, and everyone has worked to reach their level of success. No one in my family has ever accepted welfare despite being destitute upon arrival.
I loath 'ghetto culture' I'm not a wigger, into gangsta rap, skate boarding, or any other stereotype that is often in conflict with authority.
2 of my close friends ARE police officers -- 1 statey and 1 local
And at the onset of any interaction with police, I give them the benefit of the doubt and assume they are acting in good faith until they say or do something that leads me to believe otherwise.

Police are out enforcing laws, and I will not allow them to ignore their requirement to abide by them as well. Its not a matter of disrespect towards police, its a matter of respect towards individual rights.

Yea, I know some of you in law enforcement might have read all that and cringed -- but if you do your job well, and follow the laws, you wouldn't have anything but a very pleasant experience if you had to talk to me. Most of my police encounters have been very good. Courteous officers acting without any noticeable prejudice and letting me go or issuing tickets fairly, as I deserved them. That hasn't always been the case -- and for those instances that it was not I have successfully defended myself in court.

Right here you say the notion of 8 police using tasers inappropriately would be pure fiction -- haven't there already been ample factual examples of taser misuse for you to at least admit that it happens instead of creating one fictional instance for an example and then immediately dismissing it as impossible?

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Better known as:
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That noob who ran over the mine.
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That noob who hit that APC at 300m with light AT! Our APC...

Ferris Bueller

I dont think that was the intent of the quote you captured Switch. I understand what you're both trying to say and let me see if I can sort it clearly. Tarenth is dismissing it as pure fiction, because the likelihood of the guy getting tased by the private security, then getting tased again by all 8 of the officers who showed up in a manner that could be considered abuse is so astronomically low that it really is almost impossible. On Switch's side, the argument that abuse of the taser does happen and should be acknowledged is also valid. It does happen, as does abuse of anything. Look at the other hot-head topic we have going in the "Sicko" thread: the medical community is vilified because a few people did stupid things, which they should have been punished for (and hopefully were). The issue is the same. Give anyone power and there are those that will abuse it. Power corrupts, in any form. The difference between the two takes on the issue is in the understanding and verbiage. You're both trying to make the same point, Tarenth just gave an example of something that was very likely to be out of the realm of possibility.

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ScratchMonkey

Thanks, Switch. I think you capture my sentiment in post #78.

The US Constitution and the Bill of Rights were written because we didn't trust governments. Does anyone here think that those documents are obsolete and that we can now trust our government to "do the right thing"? Presumably only a few very rare bad apples are misusing their power, so we don't really need those pesky limitations, right?

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