Knowing our own fate but doing nothing about it? - Page 2

FatCobra · 02-22-2008, 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xTYBALTx

If people can smuggle drugs into our prisons, they can smuggle terrorists across our borders. End of story.

Short blog post:

http://www.reason.com/blog/show/120673.html

End of story? Oh all right, since you say so. Everyone please stop posting in this thread since Tybalt said end of story by giving us a one-line comparison of smuggling drugs into prisons and smuggling terrorists across our borders without any reason why he compared the two.

aeroripper · 02-22-2008, 09:19 PM

We will never secure our borders 100%. It's impossible.

The only way I could see it happening (effectively) would be to set up automated guns along the entire border that shot anything on the other side that moved. Even then there would be ways around it (digging tunnels, small planes, helicopters etc...)

A more realistic goal is to punish employers that higher illegals for cheap labor along with other disincentives, but with a hit to the economy.

FatCobra · 02-22-2008, 09:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by El_Gringo_Grande

I say rewrite the immigration laws and make it easy and with almost no limitations for people come here to work or become citizens. Get rid of all the stupid quotas that only serve to make people break laws and confuse the system.

Then wouldn't the whole country of Mexico and a good portion of the world try to get in? Theres' only so much space...

**El_Gringo_Grande** · 02-22-2008, 11:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FatCobra

Then wouldn't the whole country of Mexico and a good portion of the world try to get in? Theres' only so much space...

No. Many that want to work here don't want to live here. And most that want to be here are already here.

Plus as the jobs fill up the incentive to come here will decrease. Free markets and all that.

As wonderful as Switzerland is, you don't want to move there, do you? Canada has wonderful social services but you don't see millions of poor Americans trying to go there. Most people are pretty happy with their homeland.

When I say get rid of the quotas I don't mean be stupid. Base the number of people you allow in on both the countries needs and capabilities.

**RGM-79N_GM_CUstom** · 02-23-2008, 12:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sir-Nerd

I wish they had "Fly at your own risk" flight that had almost no security and you could bring a weapon on the plane. That way if anyone was to act up, they would have 60 really made people around them who are armed.

While I was standing in line at JFK/Bogota/Barranquilla international airports I was thinking the same thing.

I remember in his last stand up special Bill Maher mentioned that.

Sad thing as much as I hate airport security, I am going through it again because I want to visit Colombia for my girlfriend's graduation. Sigh love.

**Apophis** · 02-23-2008, 06:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tempus

Border security is a pipe dream. A country this large will never, ever have 100% secure borders, no matter what we try to do.

Besides, the more concerning issue is the fact that like 60% of airport screen tests (with attempts to smuggle a fake bomb) end up failing. Think about that the next time you're in that security line for an hour and they practically strip search your grandma.

Seatbelts are not 100% effective. But I still wear one because they increase my odds dramatically of surviving a car wreck.

If 60% is an accurate number, I would still rather having a 40% chance of having a bomb caught on a flight I'm about to board than a 0% chance because they don't bother actually checking.

Sure, things could get better. But I'll take my chances wearing a seatbelt and I'll take 40% over 0% on a flight every day of the week.

Hambergler · 02-23-2008, 02:16 PM

If everyone gave all their money to home land security it would not prevent a terrorist attack. If someone wants you dead or they want to blowup a baseball stadium there is nothing stopping them. The terrorists got exactly what they wanted. Because of the actions of 19+ people the country lives in fear, our economy took a huge hit, we are spending billions on homeland security and caught 3 wanna be terrorists, and we are in a endless pointless trillion dollar war that we haven't paid for yet. Sorry man I'm over it. I'm not going to be scared of the boogie man anymore. I'm going to enjoy my life and let fate take it's course. As long as we are in their holy land they will be coming after us. If our government wants to indulge their greed and slap band aides on the problem like boarder security, wire tapping, endless trampling of civil liberties etc. I'm just not going to worry about it. It's insane to put your hand in a hornets nest and expect not to get stung.

Kerostasis · 02-23-2008, 02:24 PM

Remember though that that piece of ground is "holy land" to probably more than half the worlds population. Why is it only the Muslims who have the right to complain about someone else being there? For all that it might actually work, I still don't consider sacrificing Israel to be an acceptable cost of stopping terrorism on the US.

Beatnik · 02-23-2008, 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kerostasis

You know, on 9/10 we knew that all hijackers had every intention of landing their planes at some point, as we had had many planes hijacked in the past but not a single hijacker had ever tried to use his new plane as a missile.

You seriously underestimate the intelligence of our enemy if you think they will never use an easily available attack route just because they haven't used it in the past. Even better, while there haven't yet been any sucessful attacks made over our land borders, there was at least one attack that was stopped at a border crossing before it could be completed.

That attack came over the equally insecure Canadian border ... but if you actually try to suggest that just because they've tried to attack through Canada therefore we shouldn't ever worry about attacks through Mexico, I'm just going to laugh at you. No further response will be necessary.

It's a good thing that I didn't try to suggest that. Not that I'm concerned with you laughing or not.

My point was that it's better to use actual history and data and other intelligence in prioritizing "security". Using patterns of behavior to prioritize how to best secure the country is certainly more valid than "if I can think it, they'll do it - let's drop 20 billion dollars on rhetorical conjecture".

In other words, just because you imagine terrorists lugging 4 ton bombs across the desert doesn't mean they will. Read the 9/11 report and get a glimpse of their organization and methods. It's hardly consistent with the notion of terrorists chugging through the desert with 4 canteens and the clothes on their backs. Yet, in certain people's misinformed eyes, it's an 'inevitability'.

And blowing the inordinate amount of money on "securing" something as vast as a multithousand mile border, at the cost of losing focus on bona fide threats, is absurdity on the same level of us invading another country that had nothing to do with the attacks.

FatCobra · 02-23-2008, 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beatnik

It's a good thing that I didn't try to suggest that. Not that I'm concerned with you laughing or not.

My point was that it's better to use actual history and data and other intelligence in prioritizing "security". Using patterns of behavior to prioritize how to best secure the country is certainly more valid than "if I can think it, they'll do it - let's drop 20 billion dollars on rhetorical conjecture".

In other words, just because you imagine terrorists lugging 4 ton bombs across the desert doesn't mean they will. Read the 9/11 report and get a glimpse of their organization and methods. It's hardly consistent with the notion of terrorists chugging through the desert with 4 canteens and the clothes on their backs. Yet, in certain people's misinformed eyes, it's an 'inevitability'.

And blowing the inordinate amount of money on "securing" something as vast as a multithousand mile border, at the cost of losing focus on bona fide threats, is absurdity on the same level of us invading another country that had nothing to do with the attacks.

If its the easiest way to get into our country I don't see why they wont if their other options which they have taken in the past are riskier, since this options provides the greatest chance of success with the smallest chance of risk into getting into our country at the moment.

I'm not misinformed, and you thinking that all people who get from Mexico to America do so by crossing a vast desert with canteens and the cloths on their back proves that you are the one that is misinformed.

Hambergler · 02-23-2008, 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kerostasis

Remember though that that piece of ground is "holy land" to probably more than half the worlds population. Why is it only the Muslims who have the right to complain about someone else being there? For all that it might actually work, I still don't consider sacrificing Israel to be an acceptable cost of stopping terrorism on the US.

The holy land I was referring to is Iraq, Israel, and Saudi Arabia.

I hope Israel prospers, but at what cost to America. If Boston got hit with a dirty bomb would that be enough to change your opinion? If the American people want to support Israel and have their nose in Arab lands then that is what our policy should be, but no one should be surprised when we are attacked again.

Kerostasis · 02-24-2008, 01:44 AM

No one ever said "defending the weak from their oppressors" was supposed to be easy. We do it because its right. Granted, the state of Israel isn't all that weak in its own right these days, but given that that is mostly due to American military support over years past I think the phrasing still holds.

Beatnik · 02-24-2008, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FatCobra

If its the easiest way to get into our country I don't see why they wont if their other options which they have taken in the past are riskier, since this options provides the greatest chance of success with the smallest chance of risk into getting into our country at the moment.

I'm not misinformed, and you thinking that all people who get from Mexico to America do so by crossing a vast desert with canteens and the cloths on their back proves that you are the one that is misinformed.

I didn't say or imply all people do that. Of course they don't. But when we're discussing "securing" the border, that presumes we're not talking about checkpoints in border towns, i.e. the "unsecured" border.

**CingularDuality** · 02-24-2008, 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AMosely

There is no historical evidence that Mexican border security poses any kind of legitimate threat to national security in terms of terrorism.

You know not of what you speak.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beatnik

And we KNOW that EVERYONE who's attacked the U.S. came in through normal flights in American airports. So what relevance does the Mexcian border have to legitimate "national security" concerns? Only the conceptual linking of "border security" and "national security" by the republican party.

While I'll agree that political posturing might not equate them, from a legal standpoint, airports (and seaports) ARE the border and are included whenever "border security" is discussed.

AMosely · 02-25-2008, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CingularDuality

You know not of what you speak.

Do you know of a documented case? I only know of Canadian examples - which are actually success stories for US border patrol, one involving a bomb destined for the LAX airport. I'm not saying that it's not a possibility or doesn't deserve attention, but I don't believe it's the time bomb that some are making it out to be.

Think about this. Why would a would-be terrorist with any amount of financing opt to risk their life crossing the US-Mexico border when they could just fly into a major city and dissapear? In the case of transporting material, why even attempt to arrange the logistics of hauling valuable and potentially unstable material through a vast desert when it can easily be shipped into the country via sea container? Currently only 5% of shipping containers are inspected by customs at US seaports. This is part of the point of my posting in this thread - if you want to discuss national security, don't hold the Mexican border out as some kind of achilles heel - look at the more pressing threats that have failed in the past and still haven't reformed, like seaports and airports.

If you really want to secure the border and curb illegal immigration across the US-Mexico border, I'd suggest taking a hard look at trade and economic conditions with Mexico and the effects on the Mexican people. If Mexico was a booming economy instead of slipping back into the third world, imagine what the border situation would be. Does a fence best summarize American opinions and attitudes toward Mexico?

02-22-2008, 09:19 PM	#17 (permalink)
aeroripper Join Date: Dec 2005 Age: 25 Posts: 2,284	Re: Knowing our own fate but doing nothing about it? We will never secure our borders 100%. It's impossible. The only way I could see it happening (effectively) would be to set up automated guns along the entire border that shot anything on the other side that moved. Even then there would be ways around it (digging tunnels, small planes, helicopters etc...) A more realistic goal is to punish employers that higher illegals for cheap labor along with other disincentives, but with a hit to the economy. __________________ Former TGNS admin NS Forum Moderator NS Playtester

02-23-2008, 02:16 PM	#22 (permalink)
Hambergler Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Houston, TX Age: 33 Posts: 1,061	Re: Knowing our own fate but doing nothing about it? If everyone gave all their money to home land security it would not prevent a terrorist attack. If someone wants you dead or they want to blowup a baseball stadium there is nothing stopping them. The terrorists got exactly what they wanted. Because of the actions of 19+ people the country lives in fear, our economy took a huge hit, we are spending billions on homeland security and caught 3 wanna be terrorists, and we are in a endless pointless trillion dollar war that we haven't paid for yet. Sorry man I'm over it. I'm not going to be scared of the boogie man anymore. I'm going to enjoy my life and let fate take it's course. As long as we are in their holy land they will be coming after us. If our government wants to indulge their greed and slap band aides on the problem like boarder security, wire tapping, endless trampling of civil liberties etc. I'm just not going to worry about it. It's insane to put your hand in a hornets nest and expect not to get stung. __________________

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