Be careful which book you publically tear up

ScratchMonkey · 02-26-2008, 06:26 PM

For tearing up a bible (his own property) during an assigned presentation, a high school student is suspended and sent home:

http://thehumanist.org/humanist/Ardiente.html

Quote:

Reactions from fellow students have been mixed. “At the end of the class two students approached me,” Campbell explains. “One said, ‘You’re my hero,’ and another said, ‘Wow, you have a lot of [expletive] to do something like that.’ No negative comments at all. But a friend told me later that someone in his class said, ‘He should be beat up for his atheist [expletive].’”

Quote:

But it’s hard to believe school officials that the act of ripping the Bible had nothing to do with his punishment. Imagine a student tearing copies of Charles Darwin’s On the Origin of Species and calling evolutionists “simple-minded ignoramuses.” The student would receive no more than an afternoon of detention, if that.

Evo<^|SiNz|^> · 02-26-2008, 09:00 PM

That's because Darwinism isn't a religion.

**MagnaCentipede** · 02-26-2008, 09:24 PM

"‘He should be beat up for his atheist [expletive].’”"

And that guy should be grammer lurnd for his fail of tense.

Ignoring said want of an -en, that statement indicates that religion causes intolerance and violent desires against fellow men. We should look into isolating these "fathful" and putting them on an island or something where they can just beaten the [expletive] out of each other until kingdom come.

**Skylark** · 02-26-2008, 09:29 PM

Well
a) the tearing up of the Bible isn't really a problem for me. Sure, I would not like it, but it is free speech and a 'good' example of his extreme view on the topic.
b) some of his words/speech were blatantly argumentative. He was basically insulting anyone who believed in the Bible.
c) the 'conference' that took place later was wrong, too. Come on. He gave an hard hitting speech, but hardly does it seem like he was threatening violence in anyway. I wouldn't say he was acting angry or anything that warrented seeing a psychiatrist. An example of overreacting. And realize I am a very strong Christian saying this. I completely oppose his views, but I think they went way overboard in their treatment of him.
d) The Father (and others) who were threatened by this need to grow up. Face the fact that they live in America. What is next: Man... I don't want my kids enrolled with him: He's a flag burner! He wants to kill all Americans!
e) This is an example of what I mean by I have no problem with people believing in anything as long as they do not attack other groups.
f) Those that see no problem with this should therefore be OK with me posting all over this site saying nasty things about Atheists/Agnostics (and any other group that is not mine, I suppose). I'm not going to since that is not what I believe, but it is the same basic thing. The point is that he could have given pretty much the same speech without calling them all

Quote:

We must all grow up and lose our faith in the Easter Bunny, Santa, the Tooth Fairy, and eventually Jesus, because such things are fairy tales and while maybe appropriate for children, they cease to be rational when one reaches a certain age. Things like faith, mysticism, and feeling restrict one from productive, rational thought, and if we are not thinking, we are not free. Our only means of acquiring knowledge should be through rationale and logic.
Ayn Rand personifies her vision of man’s existence in her magnum opus, Atlas Shrugged. Rand says that the pursuit of our own happiness should be our goal in life and that morality does not come from others. The Bible says the poor man is rich for his kindness and humility toward mankind, and his rewards shall be great in the kingdom of heaven. Right. And I’m the King of England. The Bible is not rational to me, so why would I want to waste my life studying it, trying to seek some “moral enlightenment” from its pages?

I don't have a problem with that. He disagrees with the bible. OK

Quote:

Now what I’m about to do next, some of your tiny little brains might not be able to comprehend, so viewer discretion is advised.

Not blatantly horribly, but seems to imply if you disagree with what I'm about to do, you have a tiny mind.

Quote:

This book has halted the intellectual advancement of humankind for centuries

Again, I would disagree. I would ask for more 'proof' or support, but I wouldn't go crazy about it.

Quote:

This book is not holy. It was written by a bunch of old, smelly Mesopotamians with sand in their [expletive].
Now, will anyone come up here with me to testify, and kick Jesus out of your heart? (No response from the students.) Well, I guess I’m surrounded by a bunch of superstitious, simple-minded ignoramuses.

This is the problem area. Bad word (not a horrible issue, but it is a school) and a blatant statement that if you don't agree with him you are supperstitious and simple (whatever).

He should have somehow gotten punished. But if I was the teacher, here is what I would have done.

Given him a detention after school. I would have pointed out that his speech was OK in some ways, but the blatant insults were inappropriate. How would he feel if a Christian was allowed to stand up and say anyone who doesn't believe in Jesus is a stupid pathetic moran who can't face the reality that they are immoral (or whatever you want to put here)?
I would make him apologize for the insults to those in the class to whom it implies. I would say he could say I still believe it is a false religion, but the insults were inapproriate. Anytime a group is singled out for insults/whatever, then that is inappropriate for a school (or life, if you ask me).

Now... for those that started caling for him to be suspended, whatever... I would say to grow up. He said what he believed. He added in insults but that is not worthy of what they want. They can pray for him, if that is what they want.

So basically, everyone screwed up - but I think the school district was the worst. Sure, the student did say some inappropriate things. But isn't that what the school should be teaching him, how to frame his remarks in such a way that they can be heard without causing anger/whatever?

What do you think?

ScratchMonkey · 02-26-2008, 10:14 PM

Amen, Skylark. (Seriously, even if I am an atheist.)

I've moderated a forum like the Sandbox and it's tough when the insults start flying. It's particularly tough when it's being done by people one otherwise agrees with. This guy's insults irritated me because they dilute his message and interfere with any possibility of convincing his audience.

I'm not surprised at the school's response. It reflects a trend in many colleges towards suppression of any speech that goes against the status quo. Institutions of learning should be focusing on how to increase discussion and the spread of information, not suppress it. Even when that information is heartily disagreed with.

**Skylark** · 02-26-2008, 10:28 PM

It was a high school. At a college, I might give a bit more freedom (although not in the moral ground of behaving oneself in a public forum).

Evo<^|SiNz|^> · 02-26-2008, 10:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ScratchMonkey

Institutions of learning should be focusing on how to increase discussion and the spread of information, not suppress it. Even when that information is heartily disagreed with.

Even when it is intentionally insulting toward a religious group? That's as close to hate speech as it gets.

**MagnaCentipede** · 02-26-2008, 11:32 PM

"Even when it is intentionally insulting toward a religious group? That's as close to hate speech as it gets."

OH NOS an intentional insult! I need an emo bandage to heal my wounds!

As close to hate-speach as it gets would be him and his friends arranging a silent play that featured a pack of atheists beat up the [expletive] out of everyone they see who wears any religious accoutrement, concluding with threatening points and glares at on-lookers who fit said category.

Meanwhile, shouldn't the thumpers be turning the other cheek, praying for his soul, and hoping he'll see the light? Nope, they're busy hoping he dun get beat up. True colours status: shown.

However, the "tiny brains" remark was rather boneheaded. Poisoned, encumbered, and washed, perhaps, but microcephalism is a bit much.

**Tarenth** · 02-27-2008, 12:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evo<^|SiNz|^>

Even when it is intentionally insulting toward a religious group? That's as close to hate speech as it gets.

Wasn't there another thread about people feeling that when the Islamic community wanted limitations on the freedom of expression because physical representations of the Prophet Mohammed are forbidden in their religion that it was an outrageous claim made by idiots? Actually...the thread was even called Idiots.... I never did get a clear understanding if it was the Islamic community we were refering to or the opponents to the limitation proposal.

Insults are used when logic and reason are lacking. The later promotes your case over your opponent while the former is an attempt to make their case look worse than yours.

Profanity is used when the user lacks both the vocabulary and intelligence for more appropriate turns of phrase.

The kid has some good points and some ideas, but the way he presented his message isn't going to win him any new supporters. In a way, it is self serving propaganda because people who believe in such a message are the only ones who will support such a message. People who disbelieve such a stance won't be swayed by being insulted, they'll just feel justified in their beliefs because they did not start the arguement with a confrontational note.

My personal favorite part of that article was the responses from fellow students on facebook. In particular this one:

Quote:

Christianity is a religion. It is a sacred belief, and held close to many people. But Christianity, like other religions and beliefs, should not be made a target and threatened and insulted upon by people who disagree. It’s fine to believe what you’d like, but it’s not alright to shock your way of belief onto others.

If you stand outside his view point for a second you can see the hypocrisy just oozing off that statement. The premiss that Christianity is a sacred belief is held by people who believe in Christianity. If you do not believe in Christianity then by extention you disbelieve its sacred quality. The belief that Christianity is sacred is a belief imposed upon others when you say it should not be insulted because it is sacred. Therefore limitations against free speech from people who oppose Chrisitanity is to impose your belief of its sacred quality.

Of course, that's ignoring the core reason why we don't directly insult someone else's religious belief: Its just rude.

**Ferris Bueller** · 02-27-2008, 12:55 AM

The part of that Facebook quote that I love the most for its hypocrisy is this:

Quote:

It’s fine to believe what you’d like, but it’s not alright to shock your way of belief onto others.

Hmm, so it's not ok to shock others into believing that you must believe a certain way. If thats the case, the christian faith needs to remove all mentions of divine retribution, Hell, punishment for lifestyle/religious choices and any references to those things, no matter how slight they may be. Oh yeah, and they need to outlaw evangelists, especially of the televised variety. Gotta love when people make criticizing statements about other people's beliefs when their faith executes the same practices on a MUCH larger scale than one kid ripping up a bible in the classroom.

ScratchMonkey · 02-27-2008, 01:34 AM

Freedom of speech, one of the great values of the West, is worthless unless it protects offensive speech. You don't need freedom of speech to protect politically correct speech.

(But note that the US 1st amendment protects us from government intervention. It says nothing about private parties who deny us the use of their press, as they have every right to.)

**sc1ence** · 02-27-2008, 10:49 AM

the first part of his speech was great. As soon as he picks up the bible he stops being rational and uses emotion to get his point across. hypocrisy at its teenage finest.

He would have been far more effective a persuader if he left out the drama and just let rational side make the argument.

the insults etc deserved some form of minor punishment. The actuall ripping of the bible is not worth punishment, but the insults that accompanied it were.

Also, we dont know this kid. He could be a troublemaker in general hence the harsh punishment.

Kerostasis · 02-27-2008, 01:22 PM

This boy's speech was rude, insulting, classless, and, thanks to the First Amendment, completely legal. And I wouldn't have it any other way.

However, just because something is legal doesn't mean it is appropriate for a highschool classroom presentation. This was definately inappropriate, and the school was well within its rights to take disciplinary action. Whether the level of response was appropriate to the crime is a slightly different question that I won't attempt to answer right now.

But as long as we're talking about "which book you tear up", just imagine the outcry if he'd been holding a Quran instead of the Bible! That would have resulted in a completely different news story. Tarenth brought up the thread about lack of freedom of speech in the Muslim world -- do any of you doubt that if he'd pulled that stunt in an Arab nation with a Quran, officials would be calling for his execution?

**MagnaCentipede** · 02-27-2008, 01:27 PM

"As soon as he picks up the bible he stops being rational and uses emotion to get his point across."

The Good Book has been doing that to people who touch it for thousands of years.

westyfield · 02-27-2008, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tarenth

Wasn't there another thread about people feeling that when the Islamic community wanted limitations on the freedom of expression because physical representations of the Prophet Mohammed are forbidden in their religion that it was an outrageous claim made by idiots? Actually...the thread was even called Idiots.... I never did get a clear understanding if it was the Islamic community we were refering to or the opponents to the limitation proposal.

Well, the thread started off being about Nazi's, and more specifically, the American Nazi party.

Quote:

Originally Posted by From the article

It’s not like race, gender, ethnicity or nationality. People can’t help those things. They can, however, help what they think.

Plastic surgery (Michael Jackson). Gender change surgery. A Brit could go to live in America and get American citizenship. Then they would be an American.
I'm not a Muslim. I'm a Christian. But if I went into my school to give a speech, ripped up the Qu'ran and told everyone that people who believe this are stupid, I would be suspended (and probably expelled) before I even had the chance to be told otherwise by the Muslims in my school. I don't believe the Qu'ran, but I respect the opinions of the people who do believe it, so I wouldn't go and tear it up in front of them.
I'm not gonna go any further on this subject as I don't want it turning into a flame war against any religion.
Westy.

02-26-2008, 09:00 PM	#2 (permalink)
Evo<^\|SiNz\|^> Join Date: May 2006 Location: Alexandria, VA Age: 27 Posts: 1,080	Re: Be careful which book you publically tear up That's because Darwinism isn't a religion. __________________ "No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country." - Attributed to General George Patton, Jr.

02-26-2008, 09:24 PM	#3 (permalink)
MagnaCentipede Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 1,550	Re: Be careful which book you publically tear up "‘He should be beat up for his atheist [expletive].’”" And that guy should be grammer lurnd for his fail of tense. Ignoring said want of an -en, that statement indicates that religion causes intolerance and violent desires against fellow men. We should look into isolating these "fathful" and putting them on an island or something where they can just beaten the [expletive] out of each other until kingdom come. __________________

02-26-2008, 10:14 PM	#5 (permalink)
ScratchMonkey Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: San Pablo, California Posts: 3,349	Re: Be careful which book you publically tear up Amen, Skylark. (Seriously, even if I am an atheist.) I've moderated a forum like the Sandbox and it's tough when the insults start flying. It's particularly tough when it's being done by people one otherwise agrees with. This guy's insults irritated me because they dilute his message and interfere with any possibility of convincing his audience. I'm not surprised at the school's response. It reflects a trend in many colleges towards suppression of any speech that goes against the status quo. Institutions of learning should be focusing on how to increase discussion and the spread of information, not suppress it. Even when that information is heartily disagreed with. __________________ Sig

02-26-2008, 10:28 PM	#6 (permalink)
Skylark Join Date: May 2003 Location: Kansas City area (U.S.A.) Age: 36 Posts: 531	Re: Be careful which book you publically tear up It was a high school. At a college, I might give a bit more freedom (although not in the moral ground of behaving oneself in a public forum). __________________ "I've TKed better men then you, and I wasn't even trying!" BF2142 toons SkylarkAssault Skylark28 (Support) Snipelark (Recon) Eng.Skylark (Engineer)

02-26-2008, 11:32 PM	#8 (permalink)
MagnaCentipede Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 1,550	Re: Be careful which book you publically tear up "Even when it is intentionally insulting toward a religious group? That's as close to hate speech as it gets." OH NOS an intentional insult! I need an emo bandage to heal my wounds! As close to hate-speach as it gets would be him and his friends arranging a silent play that featured a pack of atheists beat up the [expletive] out of everyone they see who wears any religious accoutrement, concluding with threatening points and glares at on-lookers who fit said category. Meanwhile, shouldn't the thumpers be turning the other cheek, praying for his soul, and hoping he'll see the light? Nope, they're busy hoping he dun get beat up. True colours status: shown. However, the "tiny brains" remark was rather boneheaded. Poisoned, encumbered, and washed, perhaps, but microcephalism is a bit much. __________________

02-27-2008, 01:34 AM	#11 (permalink)
ScratchMonkey Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: San Pablo, California Posts: 3,349	Re: Be careful which book you publically tear up Freedom of speech, one of the great values of the West, is worthless unless it protects offensive speech. You don't need freedom of speech to protect politically correct speech. (But note that the US 1st amendment protects us from government intervention. It says nothing about private parties who deny us the use of their press, as they have every right to.) __________________ Sig

02-27-2008, 10:49 AM	#12 (permalink)
sc1ence Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Schenectady NY Age: 36 Posts: 4,187	Re: Be careful which book you publically tear up the first part of his speech was great. As soon as he picks up the bible he stops being rational and uses emotion to get his point across. hypocrisy at its teenage finest. He would have been far more effective a persuader if he left out the drama and just let rational side make the argument. the insults etc deserved some form of minor punishment. The actuall ripping of the bible is not worth punishment, but the insults that accompanied it were. Also, we dont know this kid. He could be a troublemaker in general hence the harsh punishment.

02-27-2008, 01:27 PM	#14 (permalink)
MagnaCentipede Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 1,550	Re: Be careful which book you publically tear up "As soon as he picks up the bible he stops being rational and uses emotion to get his point across." The Good Book has been doing that to people who touch it for thousands of years. __________________

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