My Project: The Law Works Both Ways - Page 2

Elwenil · 03-14-2008, 10:29 AM

Yeah, we have it pretty bad here in some ways. Also a lot of the stuff Ferris stated above about light timing and the length of the lanes doesn't apply except on major highways and the majority of the routes are all controlled by the local town and have no set rule or pattern. Hell, I know several towns within an hour of me that don't even have any street lights, lol. I think the outrageous traffic fine thing is or has been overturned. It raised a big stink about how only Virginia citizens could be hit with the huge fines and no one else.

War.mongeR1 · 03-14-2008, 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hambergler

Nah, Virginia is the worst. Radar detectors are illegal as well.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/...ing-laws_N.htm

Oh man! I've driven around Maryland, Delaware, NY, Mass, and always hated their archaic highway systems. It REALLY stinks if you miss an exit up there. But on top of all that, Virginia doesn't allow radar detectors? So glad I live in TX. When I drive around West Texas, speed limit is 80 from El Paso to Kerrville. Yeah, baby!

**squeak** · 03-16-2008, 11:54 PM

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcont...1.468120d.html

Might be of relevance.

**Rincewind** · 03-17-2008, 12:15 PM

Lubbock Texas has gotten into trouble for shortening yellow light timing:

http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/16/1621.asp
also: http://www.aclutx.org/article.php?aid=372

They did this to increase the revenue generated by red-light cameras. The rule of thumb for yellow lights in OK is 1 second for every 10 MPH. I think it's like that for most places.

Fight the good fight switch! Contact local (PA) media too.

**Hambergler** · 03-17-2008, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rincewind

Lubbock Texas has gotten into trouble for shortening yellow light timing:

http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/16/1621.asp
also: http://www.aclutx.org/article.php?aid=372

They did this to increase the revenue generated by red-light cameras. The rule of thumb for yellow lights in OK is 1 second for every 10 MPH. I think it's like that for most places.

Fight the good fight switch! Contact local (PA) media too.

Nice Find

Switch · 03-17-2008, 06:02 PM

I'm meeting with the public works secretary for the municipality that hosts the light in question. I'll have details about that meeting later this week.

**RGM-79N_GM_CUstom** · 03-17-2008, 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evo<^|SiNz|^>

I hate to be the naysayer here, but the law in most states treats a yellow light exactly the same as a red light. Meaning, if drive through an intersection and the light isn't green, you are in violation.

Obviously you spent a lot of time on your argument, but I don't think it will hold up based on what I know about my own state's laws.

I guess I run alot of red lights then. Oh well.

War.mongeR1 · 03-17-2008, 07:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by squeak

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcont...1.468120d.html

Might be of relevance.

Woh! This article pretty much proved everyone's hunch that they don't ticket just for our "safety," but more for the revenue. That's sick. I also found it funny that Lubbock's program caused an increase in rear-end crashes. Just as any good driver could have guessed would happen. And no, I do not believe the law in most states treats yellows as reds. It's a warning the light's about to become red, giving you the option to stop or speed up to safely get out of the intersection. I used to ride motorcycle's, so my gut always tells me to speed up. Screw the penalty, I'm not getting my self rear-ended by slamming on my brakes.

At least in Texas...
http://www.texhwyman.com/laws.htm#Yellow

Switch · 03-20-2008, 04:01 PM

Today I went to the municiple complex to see if I could gather some information.

Mission unsuccessful.

I visited 3 different places: The municiple building, the police office, and the court/judicial office.

1. I was trying to find out who was responsible for traffic light timings
2. Obtain records for all traffic violations on a particular street over a period of time.
3. Discover how much revenue had been generated for traffic citations over a peroid of time.

They did not like my questions.

The woman I had intended to see in the municiple office (who was very nice on the phone) happened to not be in. She was the one who said she would have traffic light timing information avaliable for me. I'll have to go back another time for that.

I asked other questions along the lines of, how are light timings determened, what agency makes the timing decision, how is it implimented, etc. I was handed an information request form and told to return it filled out.

While in the court office I asked for similar information about finding all traffic citations written on a particular road. They said the only information they could look up would require that I provide the name on the citation or the docket number. They couldn't really wrap their minds around me wanting all the data for a period of time. They refered me to a higher court.

While in the court building a Detective heard my questions. He was quick to start investigation who I was. -- who are you, who do you work for, are you with the paper, are you with a law office, what agency do you work for etc etc etc.
He then announced with authority that the Penn DOT handles all traffic light issues. I told him that I already spoke to the penn DOT and that they informed me to the contrary. He did not like that. He left saying something along the lines of (paraphrased, dont know the words he used) 'I bet some bitchy person got a ticket he didnt like'...

At the police station I was told that they didnt think the information I was asking for could be made avaliable. I was given a phone # and told to call on monday and ask for a particular Lieutenant.

All I got out of this visit was: We don't like you asking questions. Please fill out this form and return it with your request.

As expected... but now they're worried. They seemed to be particularly concerned that I might be with a news paper, so I think I'll go talk to some news agencies now.

**squeak** · 03-20-2008, 08:50 PM

Keep it up switch.

Switch · 03-21-2008, 01:25 PM

Today I contacted a local news agency.. lets see if they bite.

Quote:

I'm investigating this on my own and state and local agencies have been less than forthcoming, maybe you guys would like to give it a shot.

The general premise is that traffic lights are not getting audited to make sure they conform to the other lights on the road, safety standards, engineering regulations etc... Instead of correcting these problems, local municipalities generate revenue off of individuals for 'running reds' when in fact the yellow light timing is too short according to safety standards. Doing this puts drivers at risk since they never know how long a yellow light will be, forcing them to unwittingly run a light, or slam the breaks and potentially cause an accident. A drivers first priority is to avoid accidents thus placing individuals in a position where they must run lights for safety, but then risk ticketing. From here there is a list of things you can call it: extortion, endangerment, negligence, etc. Whoever is responsible for maintaining the safety of the light and whoever profits from ticket revenue should be held accountable for this. Yellow lights must be set in such a way to allow an individual who is traveling the posted speed limit to stop safely or to proceed through the light without entering on a red. When lights on the same road with the same speed limit have different light timings there is something amiss.

The light of interest is on Street Road and Central In Feasterville though I'm sure there are hundreds if not thousands of others. I timed 7 consecutive lights on Street road and found that each light was set to approximately 4 second yellow except the Street Rd/Central light. Street/Central is set to 3 second yellow, despite the fact that the speed limit is a consistent 45 for the entire length of road I measured. Worse yet, the Street/Central light is at the bottom of a hill, a scenario where the yellow light time should be extended, not shortened. I've also taken a few video clips of that light to demonstrate how a large number of people technically 'run the red' because the yellow time is shorter than expected. The one second difference is completely inconsistent and unsafe and one of the federal mandates for traffic signals and regulation is safety and consistency. For this light to be set shorter there would have to be a very explicit reason for doing so. I can't think of anything that would be valid from a safety perspective. Generating revenue is not a mandate for any agency involved in setting traffic regulation standards (as far as I know... if it is, then there is certainly a conflict of interests between safety and revenue).

I've contacted PennDOT, PennDMV, the local municipality (Feasterville), Pennoni Associates (the engineering firm contracted by bucks county for traffic light related issues) and they've all played the shell game with responsibility for light timings. The engineering firm hasn't gotten back to me after I phoned in a request for some information. I've been asking who is responsible for the traffic light timings, and everyone tells me that it is someone else's responsibility. Locals tell me its a state issue, the state tells me its a local issue. When I went to the Feasterville municipal complex to ask some questions I didn't get any answers. Everyone wanted to know who I was and why I was asking. A detective from the police department who happened to overhear my questioning was quick to ask who I work for -- are you with the paper, are you with an agency, are you a lawyer, etc etc. I just told them I was doing research for litigation. The detective announced that PennDot is responsible for traffic light timings. I told him that I need to get that information from an official -- he said he was an official. I then told him that I needed a public works official because I spoke to penndot and they told me something to the contrary. He wasn't happy with my response.

At the municipal complex I tried to get the following information:

What traffic light timings are on record for the lights on Street Road and what changes have occured in the last 5 years?
Perhaps the light timings are on record as being longer than they actually are, potentially absolving the municipality of some responsibility in terms of intent. Perhaps they are officially on record as shortened, in which case they will have to provide just cause for the timing disparity. The individual I intended to meet with about these records was not in on the day I came. No one else was able to help me find the records. I was given an information request form and told to return it filled out. What they didn't seem to know is that records are supposed to be available for viewing at public offices without FOIA requests unless data needs to be compiled.

How many tickets have been written for traffic light violations on Street Road over the past 5 years?
I'd like to do some comparative analysis to see if they are generating more tickets on the Street/Central light compared to the rest of the lights on street road. No one I spoke to was able to provide me with total raw data for tickets issued. The court office said they could only provide information on individual cases if I had a name and docket number. The police station said that they didn't think they had or could provide such data, but I was told to call back later and request to speak to a particular lieutenant.

How much revenue is generated from traffic citations and how much of the total budget does that account for?
They wouldn't touch that question and were not happy to hear me asking it.

How many accidents have occurred at the light in question and how does that compare to the other lights?
I intended to ask this, but never got to it as all my other requests were unasnwered.

The resolution I'd like to see from all of this would involve many things. Admittedly all of these may be beyond the scope of an individuals influence, but if a news paper gets a community involved there will certainly be better odds. In any case, I'll try for everything and hopefully achieve something.

1. Immediate and transparent auditing of traffic lights throughout the state of PA, starting with the light in question. Explicit validation of why lights are set to their respective timings with the engineering formula used for each light on record and easily available. This, of course, would require legislation to be passed.
2. Reimbursement / Expunge traffic offenders who received tickets for running yellows on lights where the lights are determined to be shorter than they should be. This could be legislative or judicial.
3. Litigation to set a precedent in PA to determine who is responsible for traffic light timings and the extent of their responsibility in the case of an accident where a light in improperly timed. Judicial here.
4. An admission of improperly timed traffic lights from the feasterville municipality. Who knows how this could be done.
And as a lesser but easier to attain goal:
5. Help my mother with her appeal, have the charges dropped, her fines reimbursed, and possibly recover costs for time spent. It pretty time consuming to take on big brother.

In the interest of transparency I will explain why I'm so involved in this. There are two reasons:

Reason one:
My mother was recently ticketed for running the light mentioned above. She swore that she didnt run the red, but proceeded through on yellow, and went on and on about how the light was too short. I didn't believe her, but I told her I would look into it. I bought myself a stop watch and went there just to calm her down. To my surprise the light did seem short. I clocked it at 3 seconds for yellow after a dozen or so attempts. I then went to a few of the other lights to see how they are timed. They were all 4 second yellows. It seems my mom was right. She received a ticket for running a yellow light despite the fact that she had no way of knowing that the yellow light would be shorter than every other light she had encountered on the road. There was no actual reason for the light to be shorter. She went to her court date and in the lobby a police officer was offering plea bargains to change the charges to no point violations. She immediately took one. My mother lives in NJ. Despite the fact that she pleaded guilty to a 'lesser charge' she will still likely see points assessed to her license because PA has no sway over how NJ will assess its points. NJ will simply issue points for 'Out of State Moving Violation: 2 pts'. Also, police officers should not be offering plea agreements -- they are not the prosecutor! Thats another issue I suppose, but its all related to a revenue generating machine.

Reason two:
Over the years I've been hit with a large number of meaningless seat belt violations. If I'm going to be held accountable for breaking a law that only effects my own personal safety, I'm going to make sure that the state or local government is held accountable for acts of negligence (if unintentional... otherwise extortion) that put everyone on the road at risk. The law works both ways and I intend to make sure of it.

If you're interested in working on this with me, or starting your own investigation off of my initial research, please get back to me and let me know. If you have any contacts that could be of use to me, I would appreciate it if you forwarded this to them and let me know.

Thanks for your time,

Dan ------
D------@gmail.com

PS
I have yet to contact any other news agencies, if you want to act on this then it'll be your scoop, I just need confirmation within the next few days. Otherwise I'll keep looking for interested parties who might want to report on this whether it be print or television media.

Addict · 03-27-2008, 02:57 PM

http://jalopnik.com/372862/six-citie...c-camera-scams

The "scam" was excessively short yellows... seemed relevent to your situation.

Kerostasis · 03-27-2008, 03:15 PM

I ran a red-light on my way home from vacation yesterday. The light was posted on a 50-MPH stretch of highway, and had a yellow cycle a little under 3 seconds. I was too close to stop safely when it hit yellow, but not close enough to reach the intersection before it turned red. That's just plain unsafe.

Press on Switch!

**El_Gringo_Grande** · 03-27-2008, 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kerostasis

I ran a red-light on my way home from vacation yesterday. The light was posted on a 50-MPH stretch of highway, and had a yellow cycle a little under 3 seconds. I was too close to stop safely when it hit yellow, but not close enough to reach the intersection before it turned red. That's just plain unsafe.

Press on Switch!

Where you in North Carolina by any chance? I hit three of those in that state. They where on what appeared to be a 4 lane, divided, limited access highway with on and off ramps. Then all of the sudden there is a single stop light, the kind that hang from a wire overhead, with a yellow light turning red. The stupid thing was hanging OVER THE GRASS MEDIAN!!!! And it was on a curve!

I almost killed a family on the first one. Blew right through it at 60 mph and I could see the kids in the back seat and the woman screaming. I puckered and got sick to my stomach. What the hell do some people think?

**Grunt 70** · 03-27-2008, 05:35 PM

You are certainly ambitious Switch...I'll give you that.

Doesn't an existing plea bargain with the state indicate your mother has already accepted culpability for the charges? How can you have it dismissed if it's already been processed and filed?...just curious...

03-14-2008, 10:29 AM	#16 (permalink)
Elwenil Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Covington, VA USA Age: 34 Posts: 1,226	Re: My Project: The Law Works Both Ways Yeah, we have it pretty bad here in some ways. Also a lot of the stuff Ferris stated above about light timing and the length of the lanes doesn't apply except on major highways and the majority of the routes are all controlled by the local town and have no set rule or pattern. Hell, I know several towns within an hour of me that don't even have any street lights, lol. I think the outrageous traffic fine thing is or has been overturned. It raised a big stink about how only Virginia citizens could be hit with the huge fines and no one else. __________________ \|TG\|Elwenil A vote for Obama is change we can believe in? So was the last ice age, but that don't make it good.

03-16-2008, 11:54 PM	#18 (permalink)
squeak Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Illinois Age: 24 Posts: 1,915	Re: My Project: The Law Works Both Ways http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcont...1.468120d.html Might be of relevance. __________________ It only takes 2 bites [insert parasite] to get to the center of a meatpop. TGNS Admin \| NS Forum Moderator Digz \| NS Play Tester Natural Selection \| TGNS Primer \| Communication Awareness! Army Info: BCT - May 14th @ Fort Jackson SC AIT - 37F @ Fort Bragg NC Expected Return: November 14th

03-17-2008, 12:15 PM	#19 (permalink)
Rincewind Join Date: May 2005 Location: Casting useless spells in Oklahoma. Age: 27 Posts: 2,659	Re: My Project: The Law Works Both Ways Lubbock Texas has gotten into trouble for shortening yellow light timing: http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/16/1621.asp also: http://www.aclutx.org/article.php?aid=372 They did this to increase the revenue generated by red-light cameras. The rule of thumb for yellow lights in OK is 1 second for every 10 MPH. I think it's like that for most places. Fight the good fight switch! Contact local (PA) media too. __________________ ~~ Veritas simplex oratio est ~~ No matter how far a wizard goes, he will always come back for his hat. --T. Pratchett <---- You know you're getting old when you rely on your forum meta-data to remind you how old you are. Required Reading for all TG sandboxers

03-17-2008, 06:02 PM	#21 (permalink)
Switch Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: NJ Posts: 931	Re: My Project: The Law Works Both Ways I'm meeting with the public works secretary for the municipality that hosts the light in question. I'll have details about that meeting later this week. __________________ \|TG\|Switch Better known as: That noob who crashed the chopper. That noob who ran over the mine. That noob who TK'd me with a sniper rifle. That noob who hit that APC at 300m with light AT! Our APC...

03-20-2008, 04:01 PM	#24 (permalink)
Switch Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: NJ Posts: 931	Re: My Project: The Law Works Both Ways Today I went to the municiple complex to see if I could gather some information. Mission unsuccessful. I visited 3 different places: The municiple building, the police office, and the court/judicial office. 1. I was trying to find out who was responsible for traffic light timings 2. Obtain records for all traffic violations on a particular street over a period of time. 3. Discover how much revenue had been generated for traffic citations over a peroid of time. They did not like my questions. The woman I had intended to see in the municiple office (who was very nice on the phone) happened to not be in. She was the one who said she would have traffic light timing information avaliable for me. I'll have to go back another time for that. I asked other questions along the lines of, how are light timings determened, what agency makes the timing decision, how is it implimented, etc. I was handed an information request form and told to return it filled out. While in the court office I asked for similar information about finding all traffic citations written on a particular road. They said the only information they could look up would require that I provide the name on the citation or the docket number. They couldn't really wrap their minds around me wanting all the data for a period of time. They refered me to a higher court. While in the court building a Detective heard my questions. He was quick to start investigation who I was. -- who are you, who do you work for, are you with the paper, are you with a law office, what agency do you work for etc etc etc. He then announced with authority that the Penn DOT handles all traffic light issues. I told him that I already spoke to the penn DOT and that they informed me to the contrary. He did not like that. He left saying something along the lines of (paraphrased, dont know the words he used) 'I bet some bitchy person got a ticket he didnt like'... At the police station I was told that they didnt think the information I was asking for could be made avaliable. I was given a phone # and told to call on monday and ask for a particular Lieutenant. All I got out of this visit was: We don't like you asking questions. Please fill out this form and return it with your request. As expected... but now they're worried. They seemed to be particularly concerned that I might be with a news paper, so I think I'll go talk to some news agencies now. __________________ \|TG\|Switch Better known as: That noob who crashed the chopper. That noob who ran over the mine. That noob who TK'd me with a sniper rifle. That noob who hit that APC at 300m with light AT! Our APC...

03-20-2008, 08:50 PM	#25 (permalink)
squeak Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Illinois Age: 24 Posts: 1,915	Re: My Project: The Law Works Both Ways Keep it up switch. __________________ It only takes 2 bites [insert parasite] to get to the center of a meatpop. TGNS Admin \| NS Forum Moderator Digz \| NS Play Tester Natural Selection \| TGNS Primer \| Communication Awareness! Army Info: BCT - May 14th @ Fort Jackson SC AIT - 37F @ Fort Bragg NC Expected Return: November 14th

03-27-2008, 02:57 PM	#27 (permalink)
Addict Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 409	Re: My Project: The Law Works Both Ways http://jalopnik.com/372862/six-citie...c-camera-scams The "scam" was excessively short yellows... seemed relevent to your situation.

03-27-2008, 05:35 PM	#30 (permalink)
Grunt 70 Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Patriot Nation Age: 42 Posts: 2,210	Re: My Project: The Law Works Both Ways You are certainly ambitious Switch...I'll give you that. Doesn't an existing plea bargain with the state indicate your mother has already accepted culpability for the charges? How can you have it dismissed if it's already been processed and filed?...just curious... __________________ \|TG-X\| Grunt 10th Tactical Guard Server Rules and SOP \| Kicked? Banned? READ THIS FIRST! Contact an Admin \| Nominate your teammates for a ribbon "When force is necessary, it must be applied boldly, decisively, and completely. But one must know the limitations of force; one must know when to blend force with maneuver" - Leon Trotsky

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