INSUNABULA

This is originally taken from Elwenil's post on the first page and has been slightly modified.

Never think you're at the top of the pile - there's always someone looking down on you Elwenil.

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War.mongeR1

Totally! That incident really made me mad.

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"Common sense is not so common." -Voltaire

ScratchMonkey

Here's a criminal who kept trying to evade our border security and smuggle drugs:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Hancock#Early_career

This was, of course, when the country was under different management. Alas, the new management has resumed the old management's rules.

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Switchcraft

I guess I need to ask my question again because everyone who answered it didn't read it clearly enough.

What would legalizing drugs in the UNITED STATES do to prevent drug cartels in other countries WHERE THE DRUGS ARE STILL ILLEGAL? If the largest market for drugs is in the US, fine. Creating a legal market for it is only going to increase the size of that market, and thus increase profits for drug cartels already making enough money to field their own armies. Why does anyone thing that legalizing drugs in the US is going to address any of the problems referenced in the orginal post? The idea that Mexican drug lords will lay down their arms because the United States has opened a market for them is counterintuitive. The drug cartels would have MORE of an incentive to continue their current behaviour, with less potential consequences.

ScratchMonkey

The criminality of drugs in other countries is because the US pressured them into it. Just as it led that criminalization, it can lead the repeal.

The existence of drug "cartels" isn't the problem. The problem is the violence they sponsor. Eliminate the high margins paid for legal risk and the criminal muscle has no income. The farmers have no need to pay for that. All they need is distribution. (The muscle, in the form of police and military, will then be paid for through taxes.)

For drugs that require further processing, the processing can continue above-board, where sanitation and safety practices common to other manufacturing sectors can be properly followed.

Labeling should improve. You'll know what you're getting, at what strength. This should severely curtail overdoses (including those caused by mixing a drug with another drug, such as an opiate with alcohol).

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El_Gringo_Grande

And I say again, if they don't have the money they cannot afford the armed men.

You seem to assume that the cartels would still provide the drugs to those in the US after legalization. Why do you assume that? Why wouldn't large corporations provide them?

My great uncle was a moonshiner. He did almost all his sales to the dry counties in SE Oklahoma and Arkansas. He thought when the legal age was raised to 21 he would see a rise in his business. Nope. Because it was easier for the youngsters to get their booze from 21 year olds. And it was safer. Moonshine can kill if not made correctly.

Same with drugs eventually. Law abiding citizens and businesses in the US will create and sell the drugs through regulated channels. Even if they are more expensive most people will pay the "safety and ethics" tax. Not all, but most.

Another example. Look at Vegas. Who controls, for the most part, the gambling there? Not the organized crime figures. It is large corporations. They don't have those types of paramilitary groups roaming the streets, do they?

In the beginning, before the legitimate producers and distributes get up to speed, there would probably be an increase in violence as the current cartels fight to keep what is theirs. But in short order they would loose their power.

And ScratchMonkey is correct. If the US made drugs legal and regulated most countries in central and South America would follow suite to cash in on the market.

I don't even think we would have to make all drugs completely legal. Pick the safer ones and limit their potency to safe levels. It would satisfy the majority.

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I’m not racists, I have republican friends. Radio show host.
- "The essence of tyranny is the denial of complexity". -Jacob Burkhardt
- "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds" - Emerson
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Elwenil

Um, so is your comment that Canada is superior to the US and we should all be trying to get into Canada? Are there that many Mexicans invading Canada at the moment?

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|TG|Elwenil

Lusitano Louco

You have to be careful what you wish for. Someone might just grant your wish.

FrankManik

So, my weird thought from this is that you should source your weed, and make sure you're buying local.

El_Gringo_Grande

It is the green thing to do.

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Sen. John McCain (AZ) For President '08
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I’m not racists, I have republican friends. Radio show host.
- "The essence of tyranny is the denial of complexity". -Jacob Burkhardt
- "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds" - Emerson
- "People should not be afraid of it's government, government should be afraid of it's People." - Line from V for Vendetta
- If software were as unreliable as economic theory, there wouldn't be a plane made of anything other than paper that could get off the ground. Jim Fawcette

INSUNABULA

I'm saying that everyone has issues with their borders regardless of what country you're in - It wasn't so much the content but the sentiment I was trying to purvey.

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Kerostasis

Except that youve chosen a sentiment that doesn't exist. Americans are, in fact, NOT lining up at the border to get into Canada, socialized health care or not. You have demonstrated only that you, as a Canadian, look down upon the US, but not that there is any real basis for doing so. I, as an American, am perfectly happy with the US and see no reason to consider Canada superior to me.

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Elwenil

Heh, I love my country but I must confess that I am not 100% happy with it. If we were all happy with it we wouldn't really need a government, lol. While I do support my President out of principal as our chosen official, I do think certain decisions were ill advised and the War in Iraq is not one of them. Our economy suffers from these poor decisions and I honestly feel the border security issue is being poorly handled and sidestepped every chance any of the politicians get. I can only hope it doesn't get worse from this point. If anyone elects Obama to the White House I will probably go off the deep end.

As far as the Canada/US debate, both are great places to be and we all share some form of homeland loyalty. I honestly believe that Canada is able to do a lot of the things they do simply because they sit on our Northern border. Canada doesn't spend anywhere near as much on their military, mainly because a country would have to be insane to pick a fight with Canada because they know the US would back them 100%. But then that is a good thing that Canada takes that situation and makes the best of it for it's citizens.

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|TG|Elwenil

RGM-79N_GM_CUstom

I am not really a fan of "studies" but I have heard that there are those that show that the drugs with the largest amount of addicts is alcohol and tobacco. There is plenty of casual drug use. Hell the day I broke my knee I took a hit of weed right before it. I honestly feel my pain was greatly lessened by that one hit I took.The only pain I felt was the initial pain of hitting the floor and breaking my knee and pain if someone moved me. Just laying there didn't hurt at all and if it did it was nothing major. Hell I wish I could have taken weed instead of morphine and percocet. I didn't respond well to either of those drugs and ran the risk of getting addicted.

As for the not wanting to legalize drugs. Just read up on the effects of prohibition. If that doesn't persuade you at the very least it's worth a try because what we are doing now isn't really working.

Edit: As for our boarder security. I really don't know what to think. I think the media makes them out to be these evil masterminds plotting to destroy the US but I don't believe that. From what I have gathered the 9/11 attacks were a **** up on our part. Their documents were clearly fakes and there were plenty of warning signs but they at best slipped through the cracks and at worst lazy people didn't do their job.

As for the American Empire thing. I fully expect this country to fall apart possibly in my life time or definitely in the lifetime of my children. Personally I just don't want to be here when that happens. It's just the way of the universe.

Once while I was watching When the Levees Broke one person mentioned that Katrina was the US looking at itself in the mirror and finally noticing everything that is wrong with itself. I extend that to basically this whole period (not really sure where to set down the starting line though) and based off of that we are failing miserably at correcting it. If anything we are making things worse.

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ScratchMonkey

Mexicans have similar homeland loyalty. Many if not most just want a better income, not new citizenship. Observe how they send their income home to their family.

Suppose US citizens could sign up for Canadian health care without becoming citizens, agreeing to pay the necessary taxes. How many would sign up?

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