War.mongeR1

I do believe this is quite relevant...
http://www.daveramsey.com/etc/newsle...d=cnl0804_06#1

I love this guy. He's the reason I'm in good shape now and why I'm not worried in the slightest about whatever the economy decides to do. Higher gas prices? Who cares? Higher interest rates? Oh well. None of this effects me much at all. Like it says in the link, there's no better time to recession proof yourself. I have.

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"Common sense is not so common." -Voltaire

Steeler

I think it's good to keep in mind a few points relating to perspective.

First, Tactical Gamer members are not a good cross-section of the economic spread of the United States. Sandbox posters even less so. The demographic at work here is primarily technologically literate males aged 15-55, who own computers of sufficient cost to play multiple high-end action games, who have regular access to the Internet and post frequently to a political discussion group. That's a pretty narrow field.

Second, anecdotal evidence is not data. Tragic or inspiring, any one person's story is only a very small piece of the economic landscape, which is why analysts tend to downplay them while pundits and ideological advocates tend to play them up. Anyone in relative command of their economic position with the ability (and brains) to remain flexible during a shifting economy is going to do better than someone with no liquidity, no opportunities, or no clue.

Third, the "economy" is a soulless way to consider the health of a society. Most of the time when people in the media or politics talk about the flagging economy, they mean that their friends in the hedge fund business made a few million less this year than they were expecting. However much the news likes to cover the magic DJIA scrying stone, it really doesn't tell you much about how people are living and what opportunities are available to them. For that you have to look at income spreads, real wages vs. inflation, and other quality of life data. Those are the numbers that our society, as a matter of policy, should be trying to improve. Whether you do that through social action or "market solutions" is a matter for debate.

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War.mongeR1

You make a VERY valid point! I sometimes forget that we're a bit more cerebrally gifted than the general public. Not saying we're better than anyone else, but I'd say we are a lil' bit smarter than your average citizen. Probably why the majority of us are doing well. Good observation.

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"Common sense is not so common." -Voltaire

leejo

The "economy" is a soulless way to consider the health of a society but the "income spread, real wages vs. inflation, and other quality of life data" isn't?

I think it's funny that you imply that the DJIA isn't a good measure of how people are living and what opportunities are available to them, yet in a prior post you specifically mentioned concern about your mutual funds' performance. Who's living in fantasy land? Don't be a brain-dead liberal!

squeak

My father is a residential carpenter, owns his own construction company (GGB Construction, if you need some work done in IL, or IN). He's completely out of work as of next week, is letting go of his last employee this week, and has no idea how he's going to survive without work.

I've been working some jobs that don't pay worth of crap, but mostly been unemployed since graduating college. I went back to college to start on a Masters, but that's mostly to defer the loan payments that we can't afford right now. I've just enlisted into the Army, but that pay doesn't really make a dent on the cost of living.

My wife is a Nurse, and is busy busy busy. There is such a shortage of good nurses that she's making bonus bonus bucks working overtime.

The wife and I are trying to save for a DP on a house, and realistically that's a real pain considering the inflation of homes prices. We need to save more money then someone 5 or 7 years ago, but at the same time everything costs so damn much its really difficult.

So, if it wasn't for my wife we'd be in some serious trouble. The economy is absolutely ****.

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leejo

Squeak,

First of all, thanks very much for enlisting. I trust that you made this decision with more than the pay check in mind. Best of luck to you and your wife.

Second, I'm sorry to learn about your Dad. What he's going through is soul-sucking and he is likely experiencing some serious self-esteem issues. I hate to put more work on you, but he probably needs to hear from you fairly often how proud of him you are.

Having said that, there are a number of us who went through in 2002 and 2003 what you and your father are going through today. 5 years ago I basically had whatever money I'd gotten from selling my latest guitar or amp, no job, and no prospects.

It does get better. It will get better this time too. For me at least, the pressures put on me 5 years ago lead to a series of jobs that resulted in my picking up two new skills that today have me earning more than I ever dreamed possible.

Best of luck to you and your family. Believe it or not, most people go through something like this at some point. Adapt, improvise, and overcome.

Winston Churchill said "if you feel like you're going through hell, keep moving!" Keep moving.

Steeler

I should have said GDP or the Dow Jones instead of economy, but in the media, those are pretty much the same thing. Those other examples I gave are better indicators of the state of personal finances, which I would prefer that policy makers focus on instead of broader statistics when they decide to meddle. But that would be asking politicians to know something about economics, which, as that maverick John McCain has pointed out, isn't that important.

My mutual fund's performce isn't tied to the Dow Jones. In fact, I choose most of my investments on the basis of their historical performance during downturns. It just so happens that 2 of my investments which I had previously thought were relatively stable are turning out not to be so, possibly because of a change in management at the fund, possibly because they were a bit to heavy on mortgage-backed securities. I need to research that more and make a decision on how long to ride with them.

The DJIA doesn't tell you anything about personal debt, job stability, unemployment, income growth rates, inflation, really anything useful other than how one large part of the market did on a specific day.

In short, my statements are consistent, and you are fishing for an excuse to call me brain-dead.

How long are you going to keep fluttering that idiotic David Mamet piece in people's faces?

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leejo

Until "people" stock acting like brain-dead idiots! Your saying the DJIA has nothing to do with the economy is a completely moronic OR ignorant thing to say. I know it's the party line for you to assert that investing capital has nothing to do with our economy, but when you live in a capitalist economy, that argument simply holds no water. What YOU don't understand is HOW they are related, and how they impact one another. That's not my problem, and it's not the economy's problem in and of itself. The fact that you probably vote on your ignorant position does occasionally hurt the economy.

Allow me to illustrate my point. Several years ago, we lived inside a tech bubble. Thousands of companies employed millions of workers who bought homes, cars, fuel, food, hired residential carpenters, etc. with ABSOLUTELY NOTHING OTHER THAN INVESTOR CAPITAL. These businesses hadn't made any profit. Many had woefully insufficient cash flow. Still investors saw potential and investors funded these companies.

When the non-relevant Markets decided Tech was a poor investment, thousands of companies shut their doors, millions lost their jobs.

When the markets decided it was a good time to start investing in these businesses again, businesses began rehiring people who had been laid off, opening new offices, new branches, new divisions. Those workers began buying homes again, and began dining out.

To sum up, WTF are you talking about?

War.mongeR1

First off, thank you so much for joining our military. I really do appreciate it. But you should know that often times, the Army will pay off 100% of your student loans as an enlistment bonus. I sure hope you negotiated that into your contract. If you haven't gone through basic yet, it's probably not too late to get your contract re-worked to include that. Also, why are you worried with the cost of living in the Army? BAH (tax free housing allowance)? Check. Subsistence allowance (tax free money for food)? Check. COLA (Cost of living allowance for more expensive places like California and Hawaii), check. Trust me, you will be well taken care of. The commissary does a pretty good job of maintaining affordable prices on food. Also, when I was active duty, so much of my income was tax free and I spent so much time in hostile fire zones (meaning more tax free income) that I was more than taken care of. Also, every year they decide the budget for the new fiscal year, our pay gets a healthy increase to compensate for inflation. This upcoming January, I predict the military will get a nice little raise. In the meanwhile, you just need to budget well and live on less than what you make. Not that hard. If you haven't already, create a budget on paper and look at how every dollar will be spent. That should help you see where you are and what you need to do.

BTW, for every one else. The reason so many Americans are panicking is because they swamped in debt while inflation is rising. That's what we get as a society for getting so darn greedy, impatient, and wanting things we can't afford. It's a simple concept...if you don't have the cash for it, then you can't afford it. That includes cars, college, big screen tv's, and the usual things Americans finance. I have done this thing called the "Total Money Makeover" for the last year and a half. (I used to be DROWNING in debt) and now I am one car payment away from being 100% debt free! Now THAT is freedom. I could work at McDonalds or deliver Pizzas and STILL make more than enough to pay the rent, utilities, and other misc expenses. Without debt, my expenses are dang small. A simple concept that most Americans not only won't accept, but aren't even willing to try. I find it sad that the solution to a seriously de-stressed life is so simple (NOT EASY) to achieve, yet hardly anyone wants to do it. Not to sound like a commercial, but this stuff WORKS.

I highly recommend everyone read the book The Total Money Makeover, by Dave Ramsey. Even if you think you're doing just fine, it's a worthy read. I also seriously recommend that you read The Millionaire Mind, by Thomas J. Stanley, PhD. He's the reason I don't freak out about jobs, the economy, and such.

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SmokingTarpan

I'm doing okay as far as I can tell.

I work for the University of Illinois, so my job is secure with really good benefits. My salary isn't something that will knock you over, but the cost of living around here is really cheap, so that makes up for it. I'm single and, while not stingy, I tend just to not spend money out of habit. If I'm out, I've got no problem covering a friend's meal or something, but generally I buy only what I need, and only a thing or two that I want. I ride the bus to work (used to walk, but my new apartment is a 40min walk instead of a 15min one) and don't travel much, so I only buy gas like once every 3 weeks unless I do have to go somewhere. I eat most of my meals out- which some say is more expensive but I'm not seeing it- so I don't buy much in the way of groceries. My car was a gift from my grandmother, she gave me the one she had with 30k miles on it because she didn't like it, so that's nothing but maintenance costs there.

I look at it this way. Last July, I moved into a new apartment. Good upgrade, gained a second bedroom for about $90 more than what I was paying at my last place, and lost a bill that I had to pay too (new landlord pays water). When I moved, I bought all new stuff. I'm talking couch, bed, kitchen table, tv, etc. The only thing that carried over from my last place was basically dishes, my computer (which I ended up rebuilding in January anyway) and my computer desk (even my computer chair was replaced). When I moved, I had $X saved up and spent most of it on the new stuff. If not for the fact that a few weeks ago I gave my best friend and his wife a big gift for their baby shower, this month's paycheck would see me at $X + several hundred dollars. So, in less than a year I have surpassed my starting funds after getting a new place, all new furniture and a new computer.

I don't think I'm doing great by any means, but I know I'm not having troubles. I also know that I'm very lucky compared to a lot of people today considering my job and the cost of living here. Comparatively I don't feel like I make or have a ton of money, but I really think that just being careful with my money and not spending it willy-nilly has done me a lot of good. Now if I can just get this last student loan paid off...

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Tempus

Too much hostility in here guys.. Please stay on-topic.

Steeler -- I know that anecdotal evidence is just that -- anecdotal. And I also realize that TG is not a representation of society at large. But I just wanted to get some observations via sources other than the media and such.

To those who are suffering in this economy, my thoughts go out to you. I appreciate the feedback you've provided here, despite what must be a difficult subject for you.

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Steeler

Tempus, I'm not pooh-poohing the thread. I'm genuinely interested in how people here are doing, too. One last response to leejo, which I consider not hostile, but simply a spirited defense. To wit:

Learn to read.
See how those are two completely different statements?
If you were paying attention instead of trying to pick a fight with some sort of phantom communist hippie vegan living in your head that apparently uses my name, you might have noticed that I was pretty much agreeing with you that things can get better for people even after they find themselves in an economic downturn.

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leejo

Steeler, I appreciate your vigorously defending yourself by implying that I can't read and pick irrational fights with ghosts. Maybe you suffer from a tick that makes you say things then contradict yourself, and some learning disability makes you think you're being charming when you're insulting me. In any case, yes I am highly hostile to your position and a lot of your ideas. I don't know you, so don't take it personally.

When I see you write things like

I think to myself, "gee, personal debt, job stability, unemployment, income growth rates, inflation, and useful stuff other than "the market" - that's the economy!"

Am I wrong? If so, what ARE you talking about with these things other than the "economy"?

In any case, you're still woefully wrong. The DJIA tells a LOT about people's living conditions. It predicts the future. If the DOW drops like a stone, there is ZERO chance that people like yourself who don't consider it relevant won't begin to feel its effects in about 6 months. Contrariwise, when the markets flourish, the economy as a whole will flourish within a reasonable amount of time and Jane and Joe Doe will enjoy its effects soon enough. The markets are leading indicators.

Steeler

You're ascribing ideas to me I haven't said, disgreeing with positions I haven't taken, and ignoring my attempts to clarify my thoughts. All over a comment that was kinda tangential to the topic anyway.
In short:
You win. I give up.

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leejo

I think I hear angels singing!

Dude, don't get snippy. Just keep changing I mean clarifying your position. Try to do it without implying that I can't read or that I'm crazy and you may find that I return the favor. Personally, I thought your entire POST was way tangential to the topic. Tempus asked us how we're doing and you chose to give us a lecture about economics (or whatever word you actually used that only a right-wing nut such as myself would consider "economics") and how things are really worse than they appear. My first response was "who invited Buzz Killington to the party?"

So I'm genuinely interested in how you reconcile these ideas in your head. You invest. Your investments are down. That bugs you enough to mention it in response to "how is the economy doing for you?" and yet you seem to be saying that your mutual funds have nothing to do with the DJIA nor do investments like your mutual fund reflect "how the economy is doing for you".

Maybe I AM stupid. In my retarded view of the world, if people have investments and the investments are growing, they are likely to answer "how is the economy doing for you" with "fair to middlin'" at the very least.

So help me understand. What ARE you saying?