Kerostasis

You'll excuse me then for disagreeing with your characterization of Christianity as refuge for the weak, and of rural America as racist and bitter. I suppose you're entitled to your opinions, but surely you can see why the rural Americans in question may be reluctant to support a candidate who thinks so poorly of them and their faith?

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leejo

Keep making that point to anyone who will listen.

Steeler

In general, if you are inclined to dislike Obama in the first place, you will find the recent controversies an indictment. If you are inclined to like him, you will find them trivial.

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Kerostasis

Isn't that true of nearly every public figure though? That's not particularly specific to Obama.

The real question is how scandals appear to the wishy-washy undecided people, who never know who they will vote for until they walk into the voting booth. And I think this set of scandals convinced quite a few of them to break for Clinton in PA.

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Steeler

A month ago the polls had Clinton with a single digit lead in PA, and she won by just shy of 10. I don't think the Wright dust-up was about seriously influencing PA democrats - they've been more or less locked in except for a few swings. I think it was laying the media groundwork for the national campaign, assuming Obama comes out of the convention as the nominee.

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leejo

If I were an Obama supporter that would certainly be the story I'd tell. Time will tell how trivial the Good Reverend's remarks really are.

The Audacity of...well not hope exactly. What do you call it when a close advisor to a presidential candidate says that the USA invented AIDS to kill blacks, calls Jefferson a pedophile, and says "God Damn America"? Hope?

Oh no, that's right. "Trivial."

Steeler

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leejo

Yes Bill Moyers' unflinching examination of Rev. Wright's statements and relationship with Obama got rave reviews.

NOT.

At least the Obama campaign had sense enough to hand-pick the most left-wing, softball "journalist" on the planet for the interview. A former friend of the Clinton's would have already "committed suicide".

Gambit7

I actually applaud Obama for having someone like Wright close to him. I'm sick of folks who surround themselves with this P.C. "koombaya" America is great entourage. Fact is, it's bullshyt and fake.

America is dying slowly... how can you be in love with that? If we want CHANGE, you cant hold your country on high and expect to really get anything... well... CHANGED.

True patriots are those that hate the current state of their country and want it changed. You cant love it and change it. It's a contradiction in terms. Little things like the French and American revolution, and the 60's prove this.

This whole Wright business is even more a joke to me because the majority of America is too gullible and stupid to really see his comments for what they really were - and that's preachful analogies simply designed to get the noggin moving. It's thought provoking. Even dumber is that our media/we gave so much airtime to it and that much of what Wright said is actually just cold, hard gnasty truth.

People getting mad about Obama's "bitter" statement? LoL My oh my how the truth hurts... especially when it's directed in your own general direction. People NEVER like to stare at themselves in the mirror and watch it break, so when someone on the Soapbox whips one out and shows them then they're automatically hated. tisk tisk

Indeed, I hate America... I want a new United States... I love not the country I live in. I want it CHANGED and I dont want it "changed." Obama still is the best for this IMO, therefore he still gets my vote... Bitter, Wright, or not.

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leejo

You're obviously not a parent. True patriots love the current state of their country and want to change it such that it's even BETTER.

I love and adore my children just as I love and adore my country (more!). This is not to say that either my children, my country, or myself are in a state of perfection. We each have serious problems we need to overcome. But, as Lilly Tomlin said in "The Search For Signs of Intelligent Life In The Universe", "I worry that right now I AM living up to my full potential." It would be a little creepy if I looked in the mirror and didn't see any faults.

You can absolutely love something and want to change it too.

You are truly inspiring. Maybe I am too gullible or stupid to really see his comments for what they really are, but I think I'm getting you loud and clear.

Practice what you preach. You may look back at yourself and see a few things you'd like to CHANGE. In any case, I LOVE the "bitter" statement and I LOVE seeing you echo and amplify it. Suppose I ran around saying you're an arrogant loudmouth jackass. Would it inspire you to vote for me? Would you see my insults as evidence of my desire to CHANGE you? Maybe not, but let's just say I wouldn't be surprised if I lost a few votes for my statements. I'd expect whoever becomes the next president to have the vision to see the relationship between insulting a constituency - even if they actually are arrogant loudmouth jackasses - and losing their votes.

Good to know. I LOVE America and I want it changed too. Does that make me bitter?

leejo

Just curious, do you think this also applies to foreign policy? If, for example, John McCain said the people of Islam were "clinging to God and guns", do you think that would be evidence of his profound respect for the people of Islam or a signal of a deep arrogance and resentment of those people?

And how do you reconcile statements like that with a politician who claims to be able to unite those who were previously divided? What's unifying about insulting a few hundred million people?

ScratchMonkey

Hence why I hate to use the word "love". It means something different to everybody and, like scripture, can be twisted to mean whatever you want it to mean.

There's also the distinction between country (ie. the cultures, not just what rules it), ideal government (if such a thing could exist), and current state of government. I'm not a big fan of the current government (and I think that's what Gambit and Wright are both saying) but I suspect I have a very different idea from either of them of what the ideal government would look like. (I prefer the minimalist almost-anarchy of the Union when it was first formed.)

I like the diversity of culture found in America. The only thing I want from my government is protection from rival cultures that would try to suppress mine by force.

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leejo

Maybe so, but "hate" is pretty universal. When someone says "God DAMN the United States" I don't get a sense of love, I get a sense of anger and vengeance. I most certainly do NOT get a sense of "we".

Same with the "bitter" comment. It's not a very "we" thing to say.

I agree with a lot that you've said Scratch. There is a lot I would change about the current government too. But it's never occurred to me to say that I hate the US. I think it says a lot about someone if that's their position. Maybe it's just grandstanding, but I don't like that very much either - don't grandstand at my or my nation's expense.

BeSiege82

I have lived for most of my life in rural Pennsylvania and the people that live here are just as corrupt as the rest of America and the world.

These people who live in rural Pennsylvania have the same problems everyone else have. They have masks of piety, wealthiness, adulthood, and religion.

Rural areas have lost jobs because Americans do not want to work hard with their hands and in general they have poor work ethics. So what surprise is it then that America has lost many of its companies. Rural Americans work for us by working in factories, farms, and for the state. They do the work all able bodied Americans should do-- push themselves.

As I said, rural America has its masks, but saying it holds onto God and guns, is just garbage-- they should move up here for 5 years. Many do not like church, so they only view it as optional and hunting is just a sport for them...

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lTG-Irrl BeSiege82
A platoon leader...

"Courage grows strong at the wound."
"Virescit Vulnere Virtus."

"{My grump-o-meter starts to make a high-pitched whine when I point it at your post, though.}" -- Axis

Gambit7

You cant unify a people by playing to their vanities. i.e. lying to them making them think everything is hunky dory and what they say and do is all good. Healing and change starts with reconciling with the truth.

I'm sick of politicians with their painted on smiles and their obvious disregard for what actually is going on.

It's like on one side you've got Hanna Montana (who's now labeled by many parents as a closet porn star) and on the other side you've got Dead Prez (who arent played on the radio because it's just not wholesome "Americana," yet it's the dead truth).

Which would you prefer? I prefer Dead Prez. No sugar-coating needed.

I understand people get insulted by the truth, but I'm not gonna bash a man to a pulp simply for spouting it and wanting to do something about it. Find the problem and squash it instead of waltzing around it in politically-correct style.

As for what an "insult" is, I hardly say Obama's statements on rural America are slaps in the face - they're definitely not of the level of "you're a loudmouth jackass." You cant compare the two.

I hearken a lot of this back to when Bill Cosby spoke cold-hard truths about Black America at a few speaking engagements. It put the black community in an uproar and Cosby lost a lot of cred. Nevertheless, what he said accomplished a lot, caused many people to think, and was truly the cold-hard truth of it. Both me and my father (we're black btw) applauded him for much of what he said. And mind you, what Cosby said was WAY worse then anything Obama ever said... and Obama is catching way more heat for it of course.

And as for changing America itself... dont think that it's just the government. It is the "WE" that is the underlying problem. All of it must change. Just pointing your finger and blame at the govt is a total copout... similar to Black America blaming everyone but themselves for their woes, whining and getting nothing done in the long run.

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