Man jailed because daughter failed GED - Page 2

Kerostasis · 05-14-2008, 03:01 PM

(edit--this was posted before reading Tarpans post above, so he probably obsoletes some of the things I'm about to say.)
I searched around for some other news stories, and good info is hard to come by, but this is what I've come up with so far:

-1- When the daughter was 16, the court assigned custody to the Father, who then allowed her to live with her Mother. There is no mention of education requirements being attached to the custody decision, or whether the custody decision was contested at all.
-2- Still at 16, the daughter was repeatedly truant from school, and the courts stepped in and ordered the custodial parent, in this case the dad, to do something about her truancy and ensure her education. This point is cloudy since Ferris and SmokingTarpan both pointed out that school attendance is no longer mandatory past a certain age, which we think is probably 16. However, apparently withdrawing requires parental consent? Perhaps the parents both wanted her to stay in school and therefore didn't fill out the "drop-out" paperwork, but couldn't manage to get her to actually show up for class?
-3- Now that the daughter is 19 and still can't pass her GED, the court is taking that as evidence that the order given in part 2 was ignored and the daughter remained truant. Therefore the parent was "contributing to the delinquency of a minor" 3 years ago, even though she is no longer a minor today.

I don't have much problem with the judges actions in step 3. If you take step 2 as a given, then step 3 follows from it fairly logically. However, step 2 is very legally questionable itself. Unfortunately our available news data is all focused on step 3, making it difficult to properly ascertain what the context was from prior steps that led up to it.

SmokingTarpan · 05-14-2008, 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kerostasis

However, apparently withdrawing requires parental consent? Perhaps the parents both wanted her to stay in school and therefore didn't fill out the "drop-out" paperwork, but couldn't manage to get her to actually show up for class?

Yes, from most things that I have read, parental consent is required for a child to drop out of school. It usually comes with some harsh (depending on your opinion) penalties as well, such as the child losing their driver's license.

Provided that this part from the sister is actually true, I think there's an important bit or two here:

Quote:

Brittany had sporadic court dates about her truancy through all this. It was June 2007 when the judge told Brian he would be go to jail for contributing to the delinquency of a minor if Brittany did not return to school in the Fall. Brittany turned 18 yrs old August 2007 and was enrolled in school, but did not attend because she was "18".

The court ordered the father to make sure the girl returned to school. However, by the time school started she was no longer a minor, and was legally responsible for herself- choosing not to go to school. So how can the father contribute to the delinquency of a minor if the lynchpin of the court order wouldn't go into effect until after she was an adult? Outside of possibly a situation such as a person having severe physical/mental disabilities (and maybe not even in that situation), is it legal to force one adult to assume responsibility for another?

Quote:

She returned to juvenile court, although she was now 18, on August 29th. The court then ordered her father to take Brittany out of school, and told Brittany to get her GED before the next court date or her father would go to jail.

Again, the court here orders the father to take the daughter out of school, even though she's 18 and he's no longer legally responsible for her (thus couldn't force her to either attend or leave school). Then the court goes on to say that if she doesn't get her GED, her father will receive punishment. That's the same thing as saying Kero would go to jail if I murder someone. Furthermore, the court can't force her to get her GED, as there's no law anywhere that says she's required to have one or an equivalent (thus she hasn't broken a law and can't be made to make restitution). So really, the father would seemingly be receiving punishment for nothing, since no laws anywhere had been broken. This is, of course, assuming that the court order about contributing to delinquency is indeed as bogus as I think it is.

I sure would love to see the actual court documents surrounding this case.

Kerostasis · 05-14-2008, 04:36 PM

The longer we study this case, the screwier it looks. I'll agree, it would be great to be able to see the original court documents relating to this.

**CingularDuality** · 05-14-2008, 11:43 PM

Ah, I see now... It all makes sense.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SmokingTarpan

The court ordered the father to make sure the girl returned to school. However, by the time school started she was no longer a minor, and was legally responsible for herself- choosing not to go to school. So how can the father contribute to the delinquency of a minor if the lynchpin of the court order wouldn't go into effect until after she was an adult? Outside of possibly a situation such as a person having severe physical/mental disabilities (and maybe not even in that situation), is it legal to force one adult to assume responsibility for another?

OK, here's the deal. We can agree that it's likely that before the girl became an adult, that she was truant? And that allowing truancy is a crime of some sort for which a parent can be convicted and punished? Assuming those two things, what's wrong with a parent being punished with probation that requires that the parent convince their now adult daughter to get her GED? Failing that probation results in the original sentence being applied. In other words, the court finds the father guilty of the crime and sentences him to six months in jail, BUT if he's able to get his daughter to earn her GED, there will be no jail time. Again, seems reasonable to me.

This is similar to judges probating sentences if the teenager agrees to enlist in the military, which happens all the time. Conscription isn't legal in the US, so are these judges overstepping their bounds?

I say no.

**Ferris Bueller** · 05-15-2008, 12:35 AM

The last point you made is a bit off the mark though Cing. When someone is offered the choice between military service and jail time, they are the ones being punished for their own actions. You dont find people's parents being offered the choice between military service and jailtime for something their child did. Also, no, it isnt overstepping bounds. The ultimate goal of the prison system is to rehabilitate offenders through their sentence (assuming the crime isnt enough to warrant life without parole or the death penalty). Likewise, the military would serve the same rehabilitative qualities, but in a more productive and constructive environment.

Switchcraft · 05-15-2008, 01:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CingularDuality

Ah, I see now... It all makes sense.

OK, here's the deal. We can agree that it's likely that before the girl became an adult, that she was truant? And that allowing truancy is a crime of some sort for which a parent can be convicted and punished? Assuming those two things, what's wrong with a parent being punished with probation that requires that the parent convince their now adult daughter to get her GED? Failing that probation results in the original sentence being applied. In other words, the court finds the father guilty of the crime and sentences him to six months in jail, BUT if he's able to get his daughter to earn her GED, there will be no jail time. Again, seems reasonable to me.

I'm not following you on this. You present what might be a reasonable scenario, but nowhere in the articles am I reading that a court convicted him of a truancy violation. Family court orders, like many court orders, often require no such thing as a conviction or probation in the legal sense of the word. However, the one fact that seems pretty obvious it that in June 2007 the court did tell him that he would go to jail for contributing to the deliquency of a minor if she did not attend school as an adult. On the next court date, the father was ordered to remove her from school and make sure she got her GED. If, in fact, it is the GED at issue, which according to the court it is, then the court did not even consider the GED until after her 18th birthday, and the only reason the case is still active is because her delinquency started when she was a minor. But just because someone has an active case does not mean the court has the obligation to impose jail time on someone.

Quote:

This is similar to judges probating sentences if the teenager agrees to enlist in the military, which happens all the time. Conscription isn't legal in the US, so are these judges overstepping their bounds?

I say no.

Your analogy isn't quite right; it would only be comparable if the judge ordered HER into military service, not the father.

Also, a judge may take into consideration that a person has decided to enlist, but given that conscription IS illegal, and the enlistee is required to swear an oath that they have not, in fact, been ordered to enlist by a court, I would say yes, a judge ordering someone into the military is definitely overstepping thier bounds. If you believe that judges should have any sort of power, then you should also believe that judges should by bound by the rule of law. I'm not willing to grant unlimited power to anyone.

Why 6 months in jail? A court just as easily conclude that the man was in contempt, and hold him indefinitely until she decided to pass the GED, right? If this is such a reasonable idea, why doesn't a court just order that teachers spend their summers in jail everytime someone fails their class?

The problem with the order is not really the order itself..ordering someone to stay on top of their child's education is not unreasonable. But just like in contract law, specific performance has some real limitations, and one major and generally recognized exception is impossibility. The fact that the court will release him before his 6 months is up if she passes shows exactly why they shouldn't have resulted to jail: regardless of why they began, they are punishing him for the current actions of someone they have no authority over. They can't order her to pass the GED, and she was already an adult before they issued the order requiring him to ensure her specific performance. But since they have an active case, so they are using jail to...what? Make sure he doesn't do it again? Is depriving him of liberty the only option the court has available? Is it the only reasonable option?

According to the comments, the father is the one who petitioned the courts for help with his truant and pregnant daughter. It makes me sad to think that he's probably going to lose his job because he's being punished until she can accomplish something he, and the court, has no legal authority to compel.

SmokingTarpan · 05-15-2008, 02:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CingularDuality

We can agree that it's likely that before the girl became an adult, that she was truant? And that allowing truancy is a crime of some sort for which a parent can be convicted and punished?

This doesn't matter because, according to the sister's statement (and assuming it's true), the girl was ordered to attend school after having become a legal adult. Adults can't be truant from school, thus no crime was committed. From the OJJDP:

"Like running away from home, alcohol use, and curfew violations, truancy is a status offense—an act that would not be criminal if committed by an adult."

The court can't order something that's impossible, which in this case would be that one adult forces another adult to obey. The father was ordered to make sure his daughter attended school in the fall. However, when the fall semester begins, she's an adult. The father can no longer legally order her to do anything- let alone fulfill the court order- nor can he be held legally responsible for her now adult actions.

What's more is that the court ordered the daughter to get a GED, which sounds illegal to me being that there is no federal or state law requiring a GED or diploma ever be achieved by a person. A court can't just randomly order you to do something because it wants to, there has to be a crime before restitution can be directed. And since an adult can't be truant from school, no crime here.

Quote:

Assuming those two things, what's wrong with a parent being punished with probation that requires that the parent convince their now adult daughter to get her GED?

The root of the problem is that that court is forcing one adult to be responsible for another adult's actions, something that isn't legal to my knowledge (previous disability scenario not withstanding). Regardless of familial status, that's the end result. It's no different than if the court were to order me, upon penalty of prison, to make sure that you attended Gamer's Anonymous. You're an adult, I have no authority to make you do squat. Would it be right to throw me in jail for violating an order that I can't possibly legally fulfill?

Another thing that seems important here that Switch lightly touched on: the daughter is now legally an adult, so why is the juvenile court even involved anymore? If the court really gave a damn about this kid's education, it should have done all of this back when she was a minor and still "in need" of help. The court should just say, "You know what, you're an adult. We're going to focus on the hundred or so children that we haven't yet completely failed. You go now."

So what purpose, other than sending the judge's personal message and views regarding education, does sending this father to jail and ordering an adult to get a GED they're not required to get in the first place serve? None in my mind, except wasting Ohio tax dollars on feeding and clothing a man for 6 months. Although I do suppose it would have been harder to make headlines if the judge had just done this back when the case simply blended in with thousands of others just like it...

**CingularDuality** · 05-15-2008, 06:19 AM

You're both right that if there wasn't a truancy crime (skipping school while still a minor), then the judge shouldn't be able to do this. I believe that if there was a crime, and the father was guilty of it, that the court should be able to do what I described. The facts as we know them aren't clear enough to say that is the case, though.

As for the military service in lieu of jail time, it's done all the time. A kid (young adult) is sentenced for a crime, but the court offers him probation on the condition that he enlists. It's completely legal and very common.

It's not forcing anyone to do anything. The person has already been convicted and sentenced. The military service (or convincing an adult to pass GED) is offered as an alternative in the interests of justice. If you don't like that alternative (or you break the conditions of your alternative), you're free to serve out your jail time that the court originally sentenced you to...

Sara · 05-15-2008, 08:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CingularDuality

You're both right that if there wasn't a truancy crime (skipping school while still a minor), then the judge shouldn't be able to do this. I believe that if there was a crime, and the father was guilty of it, that the court should be able to do what I described. The facts as we know them aren't clear enough to say that is the case, though.

Skipping school as a minor and as an adult are still frowned opun =(

ScratchMonkey · 05-15-2008, 12:29 PM

I find this remark from the blogger offensive:

Quote:

Brittany loves her Dad but she has the thought process of a teenager.

It's an insult to responsible teens and pre-teens.

It might be more accurate to suggest that she has the thought process of a cow. And even then, I'm probably insulting cows.

SmokingTarpan · 05-15-2008, 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CingularDuality

It's not forcing anyone to do anything. The person has already been convicted and sentenced. The military service (or convincing an adult to pass GED) is offered as an alternative in the interests of justice.

But again, can you order one adult to assume legal responsibility for the actions another adult? Bob can be ordered to take responsibility and receive punishment for his own actions (provided the order is legal to begin with), but I don't think it's legal to punish Sam for Bob's actions- especially if it's Bob that the court has ordered to do something. If Bob screws up, I don't see how it serves the interests of justice by punishing Sam; you're supposed to punish the actual offender.

**CingularDuality** · 05-15-2008, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SmokingTarpan

But again, can you order one adult to assume legal responsibility for the actions another adult? Bob can be ordered to take responsibility and receive punishment for his own actions (provided the order is legal to begin with), but I don't think it's legal to punish Sam for Bob's actions- especially if it's Bob that the court has ordered to do something. If Bob screws up, I don't see how it serves the interests of justice by punishing Sam; you're supposed to punish the actual offender.

You're still not looking at it right. The punishment is 6 months in jail for truancy. After that sentence has been decided, the judge then says, "But if you can convince your adult daughter to get her GED, I'll let you go with probation." If the adult daughter doesn't get her GED, the dad's not being punished because she didn't get her GED. He's being punished for the truancy crime that he was already found guilty of!

Switchcraft · 05-15-2008, 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CingularDuality

You're still not looking at it right. The punishment is 6 months in jail for truancy. After that sentence has been decided, the judge then says, "But if you can convince your adult daughter to get her GED, I'll let you go with probation." If the adult daughter doesn't get her GED, the dad's not being punished because she didn't get her GED. He's being punished for the truancy crime that he was already found guilty of!

There was not a conviction and sentence for truancy. There was an admonishment that if she did not get her GED, he would be convicted of contributing to the delinquency. Your argument is based on the idea that he would, no matter what, have an actual conviction on his record either way. The court's argument is that he would not even be convicted, and thus not sentenced, unless he got his adult daughter to pass the GED.

Switchcraft · 05-15-2008, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sara

Skipping school as a minor and as an adult are still frowned opun =(

Based on your statements about military members, and your claims that people from the south just not being very bright, I think it's a shame that there are children legally obligated to listen to you on school days.

Edit: I just saw the other topic where Cing raised the flag after I wrote that. Boy do I feel duped!

**CingularDuality** · 05-15-2008, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Switchcraft

Your argument is based on the idea that he would, no matter what, have an actual conviction on his record either way. The court's argument is that he would not even be convicted, and thus not sentenced, unless he got his adult daughter to pass the GED.

Ah, I did not realize this. Where are you getting this info? From a blog?

05-15-2008, 12:35 AM	#20 (permalink)
Ferris Bueller Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Orlando, FL Age: 26 Posts: 5,160	Re: Man jailed because daughter failed GED The last point you made is a bit off the mark though Cing. When someone is offered the choice between military service and jail time, they are the ones being punished for their own actions. You dont find people's parents being offered the choice between military service and jailtime for something their child did. Also, no, it isnt overstepping bounds. The ultimate goal of the prison system is to rehabilitate offenders through their sentence (assuming the crime isnt enough to warrant life without parole or the death penalty). Likewise, the military would serve the same rehabilitative qualities, but in a more productive and constructive environment. __________________ \|TG-6th\|Ferris Bueller Important TG Reading \| Support TG - Become a Supporting Member \| TacticalWiki - Your TG Guide Kicked/Banned? READ THIS FIRST! \| Complete list of TG Admins \| Think Someone Did A Good Job? Nominate Them For a Ribbon! Report Problem Players/Appeal Your Ban \| Learn TG - The TG Mentoring Program __________________ "Never underestimate the power of human stupidity." -Lazarus Long

05-15-2008, 06:19 AM	#23 (permalink)
CingularDuality Join Date: May 2003 Location: Dallas/Ft. Worth area of Texas, USA Age: 33 Posts: 17,140	Re: Man jailed because daughter failed GED You're both right that if there wasn't a truancy crime (skipping school while still a minor), then the judge shouldn't be able to do this. I believe that if there was a crime, and the father was guilty of it, that the court should be able to do what I described. The facts as we know them aren't clear enough to say that is the case, though. As for the military service in lieu of jail time, it's done all the time. A kid (young adult) is sentenced for a crime, but the court offers him probation on the condition that he enlists. It's completely legal and very common. It's not forcing anyone to do anything. The person has already been convicted and sentenced. The military service (or convincing an adult to pass GED) is offered as an alternative in the interests of justice. If you don't like that alternative (or you break the conditions of your alternative), you're free to serve out your jail time that the court originally sentenced you to... __________________ Become a supporting member! Buy a Tactical Duck! Take the world's smallest political quiz! "I was touched by His Noodly Appendage." TacticalGamer TX LAN/BBQ Veteran:

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