Bob Barr - the small government candidate - Page 2

**Sirusblk** · 05-15-2008, 03:32 AM

The Equation I learned in High School:
Communists--Socialists--Liberals--Democrats--Moderates--Republican--Conservatives--Facists--Nazis

I'm not saying that socialism is a step away from communism and conservatives are facists. That's just where they fall on the scale.

Kerostasis · 05-15-2008, 04:58 AM

High school taught you wrong then.

At the very least, you need to go at least 2 dimensional to get a decent grasp of where various political parties line up relative to each other. 3 dimensions is even better.

**CingularDuality** · 05-15-2008, 05:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MagnaCentipede

It's more conservative than the socialists and facists that call themselves "democratic" and "liberal," so I'll draw the line where I see the distinction.

Really? Democrats and liberals want to eliminate laws that now make drugs illegal?

Democrats and liberals are out there supporting the right for gays to marry? I'd love to know whether it was Senator Obama or Senator Clinton that said they support gay marriage.

Did Senator Clinton or Senator Obama indicate that the FCC should have no say in what is "offensive"?

The fact is that libertarian are, in general, socially liberal and fiscally conservative. You're not seeing the distinction clearly, evidently...

Sara · 05-15-2008, 08:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sirusblk

The Equation I learned in High School:
Communists--Socialists--Liberals--Democrats--Moderates--Republican--Conservatives--Facists--Nazis

I'm not saying that socialism is a step away from communism and conservatives are facists. That's just where they fall on the scale.

Wow...I learned Democrats--Republicans--Communists--Nazi's
In 6-7 grade...high school was all boring ****

ScratchMonkey · 05-15-2008, 12:22 PM

Here's one approach to a 2D representation:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World&#...Political_Quiz

In the early 20th century the Socialist Party won few elections but by "spoiling" Democratic elections largely usurped the platform of that party. A party that once stood for things Libertarians uphold (individual liberty and fiscal responsibility) turned 180 into something Lenin would have embraced.

It's not important that your party wins (unless you're only concerned about tribalism). What's important is that your ideas win. In the last 30 years significant parts of libertarian ideology have become mainstream, and running in elections is one way to get those ideas out where they can influence the electorate and the candidates of other parties. "Spoiling" an election insures that in the next cycle, the candidates adopt your ideas to draw margin voters.

**Sirusblk** · 05-15-2008, 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CingularDuality

Democrats and liberals are out there supporting the right for gays to marry? I'd love to know whether it was Senator Obama or Senator Clinton that said they support gay marriage

That's exactly it though. No political candidate is successful by announcing policy one way or the other. Political candidates are chosen on feel good emotions derived from statements like "I believe in moral standards" which could mean anything.

You have to look at their history and Bob Barr has been adamant about anti-gay rights legislation. Clinton and Obama haven't pursued that kind of legislation which is my only indication that they're not against gay rights.

ScratchMonkey · 05-15-2008, 07:31 PM

Whatever Barr's position on gay rights, does he advocate that they be addressed at the Federal level, or does he want it handled at the State level, where one can move to another State to escape prejudice?

Seems to me that the only issue there is definition of marriage, and the Constitution doesn't authorize the Fedgov to pass laws about marriage. (I suppose the commerce clause might kick in if the bride and groom are from different states.)

MagnaCentipede · 05-15-2008, 07:48 PM

"Communists--Socialists--Liberals--Democrats--Moderates--Republican--Conservatives--Facists--Nazis"

Nazis are socialists. That's what the slurred zi part comes from. National Socialists.

**CingularDuality** · 05-16-2008, 12:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MagnaCentipede

"Communists--Socialists--Liberals--Democrats--Moderates--Republican--Conservatives--Facists--Nazis"

Nazis are socialists. That's what the slurred zi part comes from. National Socialists.

Indeed. That's why someone pointed out that the political spectrum is not one dimensional. Economic principles are really different from social principles.

**Sirusblk** · 05-17-2008, 03:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ScratchMonkey

Whatever Barr's position on gay rights, does he advocate that they be addressed at the Federal level, or does he want it handled at the State level, where one can move to another State to escape prejudice?

Wait, you have to get up and move from one state to another because of prejudice? Wow I'm glad I live in the USA where we allow that to go on... :/

**CingularDuality** · 05-17-2008, 03:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sirusblk

Wait, you have to get up and move from one state to another because of prejudice? Wow I'm glad I live in the USA where we allow that to go on... :/

Don't get your panties in a wad... Prejudice is many things. Here in Texas, there are many counties that are dry. That's a prejudice that I won't stand for, so I live in a county where I can buy beer and liquor.

The concept of states' rights has nearly disappeared in our country, and that's sad...

**SloppyJoe** · 05-17-2008, 04:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sirusblk

Another candidate against same sex marriage, honestly is it impossible for a true canidate to enter the ring and support gay rights?

That's what I liked about Ron Paul (whatever happened to him anyway?). He clearly has his own beliefs, yet separates them from what the constitution of this country (was) about. Now it's all about changing it to suit what groups in society are bickering about at the time. Sickening. Not only do a large portion of this country not understand the basics of its creation, but same goes for the leadership, who understandably are trying to win the popularity of said population.

barf

ScratchMonkey · 05-17-2008, 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CingularDuality

Don't get your panties in a wad... Prejudice is many things. Here in Texas, there are many counties that are dry. That's a prejudice that I won't stand for, so I live in a county where I can buy beer and liquor.

The concept of states' rights has nearly disappeared in our country, and that's sad...

Exactly. If one wants to exercise the right to self defense, one has to leave my state (California) and move to states like Texas and Vermont.

If one wants more control over where one's income is spent (ie. less taxes), one has to emigrate to New Hampshire or Alaska.

States Rights insure that States compete for the interests of the citizens. People who want a nanny state can go to that kind of state, while those who want a state for self-sufficient adults who look after each other through voluntary and market associations can choose something different.

To the extent that we eliminate States Rights and homogenize all States into one Federal monolith, we might as well give up having a US at all and throw our lot in with the UN, which claims to want to do the same for all countries.

**Sirusblk** · 05-18-2008, 05:44 PM

Wait there's a difference between drinking in a state and being able to get married.

Whatever your views on gay marriage are is it fair for a license granted by our constitution to only apply to male and female couples and not same sex couples?

There's nothing in our constitution against it, only the bible so why the hell do we have laws against it?

I'm sorry but states being dry does not even begin to compare to discrimination to gays.

MagnaCentipede · 05-18-2008, 07:05 PM

Effectively, you say that individuals do not have a right to assemble communities of like-minded people.

05-15-2008, 03:32 AM	#16 (permalink)
Sirusblk Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Orange County Age: 19 Posts: 1,111	Re: Bob Barr - the small government candidate The Equation I learned in High School: Communists--Socialists--Liberals--Democrats--Moderates--Republican--Conservatives--Facists--Nazis I'm not saying that socialism is a step away from communism and conservatives are facists. That's just where they fall on the scale. __________________

05-15-2008, 12:22 PM	#20 (permalink)
ScratchMonkey Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: San Pablo, California Posts: 4,565	Re: Bob Barr - the small government candidate Here's one approach to a 2D representation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World&#...Political_Quiz In the early 20th century the Socialist Party won few elections but by "spoiling" Democratic elections largely usurped the platform of that party. A party that once stood for things Libertarians uphold (individual liberty and fiscal responsibility) turned 180 into something Lenin would have embraced. It's not important that your party wins (unless you're only concerned about tribalism). What's important is that your ideas win. In the last 30 years significant parts of libertarian ideology have become mainstream, and running in elections is one way to get those ideas out where they can influence the electorate and the candidates of other parties. "Spoiling" an election insures that in the next cycle, the candidates adopt your ideas to draw margin voters. __________________

05-15-2008, 07:31 PM	#22 (permalink)
ScratchMonkey Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: San Pablo, California Posts: 4,565	Re: Bob Barr - the small government candidate Whatever Barr's position on gay rights, does he advocate that they be addressed at the Federal level, or does he want it handled at the State level, where one can move to another State to escape prejudice? Seems to me that the only issue there is definition of marriage, and the Constitution doesn't authorize the Fedgov to pass laws about marriage. (I suppose the commerce clause might kick in if the bride and groom are from different states.) __________________

05-15-2008, 07:48 PM	#23 (permalink)
MagnaCentipede Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 1,957	Re: Bob Barr - the small government candidate "Communists--Socialists--Liberals--Democrats--Moderates--Republican--Conservatives--Facists--Nazis" Nazis are socialists. That's what the slurred zi part comes from. National Socialists. __________________

05-18-2008, 05:44 PM	#29 (permalink)
Sirusblk Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Orange County Age: 19 Posts: 1,111	Re: Bob Barr - the small government candidate Wait there's a difference between drinking in a state and being able to get married. Whatever your views on gay marriage are is it fair for a license granted by our constitution to only apply to male and female couples and not same sex couples? There's nothing in our constitution against it, only the bible so why the hell do we have laws against it? I'm sorry but states being dry does not even begin to compare to discrimination to gays. __________________

05-18-2008, 07:05 PM	#30 (permalink)
MagnaCentipede Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 1,957	Re: Bob Barr - the small government candidate Effectively, you say that individuals do not have a right to assemble communities of like-minded people. __________________

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