Re: The Sarah Palin corner of the Sandbox!

**Kerostasis** · 10-31-2008, 02:22 PM

Originally Posted by El_Gringo_Grande

I think support of historically-derived state ownership by way of increasing the distribution amounts makes it disingenuous.

But in case I did use the wrong word I think you still understand what I am getting at. No?

Maybe hypocritical is a better word? And if she does realize she is being hypocritical there is more to her actions. Maybe not lying directly but close enough for government work.

Yes, hypocritical is the word you are looking for here. "Disingenuous" suggests the claim being made is misleading or untrue. "Hypocritical" merely notes that the speaker making the claim does not themselves follow the advice of that claim.

You could reasonably make a case that Palin is being hypocritical with her claim. I could then make a case that the specifics of the Alaskan situation are different enough that she is not actually being hypocritical, but I'm not going to bother because I've already decided not to vote for her anyway. But either way, the charge of hypocrisy against Palin does not diminish the charge of socialism against Obama. Palin could be the most socialist hockey-mom ever born, and that wouldn't change Obama's policies one whit.

**AMosely** · 10-31-2008, 02:29 PM

Originally Posted by E-Male

So any talk of the rich being subjected to the same tax rate as the middle or lower classes is rather suspect.

I'd say it's outrageous. Most of the wealthy in America aren't just wealthy, they are extrordinarily wealthy, especially the 'new rich' born out of not just the side-betting in the finance industry but precisely from pro-wealth economic legislation or lack thereof. The income gap in America today is broader than many third-world countries. Trickle-down economics only worked half-way - the legislative and political framework produced robust and growing wealthy class. What it didn't produce was a robust and growing middle class. It makes logical sense - if the priority of a business is the business and the priority of the government is business, the population is going to be left behind. Like slack in a tow rope, this is what's been happening in America for at least the past quarter century. As much as conservatives think they can apply CPR to this flawed theory, the slack has run out and the rope is starting to tighten with a jolt.

To think that the rich who made their fortunes off the backs of the working middle class (or their mortgages and retirement savings) through pension-cutting, health care cutting and stagnating wages that barely kept pace with inflation should now be somehow subject to fairer taxes is more than suspect - it's outrageous.

And now the party representing their interests - the republican party - is going to claim that any added tax burden in conjunction with relief for the lower and middle class is socialist? The biggest insult is that they call themselves patriots when in reality they're treating American economy like a prostitute - sex without love.

Put that in your pipe and smoke it, folks.

**E-Male** · 10-31-2008, 02:51 PM

Indeed, it is ironic that Republicans embrace corporate-welfare but insist that policies common to most if not all western industrialized nations, those directed towards the welfare of the middle and lower classes, some how constitute socialism.

The Democratic party is as far from socialism as the Republican party is from being democratic (as in 'democracy' -- the ideal state which lies behind this rhetorical nonsense).

What is most curious is how deviant labeling is used within Republican political rhetoric, and its subsequent erosion of public dialogue. Taxes for the common good are equated with socialism, honourable elected representives are tarred with the terrorism brush, and the American electorial map is divided in pro-America and anti-America.

And meanwhile, the price tag for the emperor's crown climbs to over 2 billion dollars.

**ScratchMonkey** · 11-01-2008, 12:05 AM

Originally Posted by E-Male

It is indisputable that the rich place place a greater burden on public resources -- they own more homes and larger homes, use more energy, water, oil, and so forth, and contribute more garbage to 'landfills' and other post-consumption issues.

Most of those "public" resources are fee-based, not tax-based, so one pays based on how much one uses them. And many are privately owned but publicly regulated. If Republicans are using more than their "fair" share, then the fees need to be restructured to reflect actual costs.

Regulation tends to contribute to distorted pricing of resources, because it allows the politically well-connected to rig the prices to favor their own usage while penalizing rivals.

Oh, and Palin and McCain are socialists. They don't mind having the state run industry and distributing its production, "to each according to his needs". And prior to his nomination, most pubbies thought McCain was a liberal. ISTR that the same was true of Bush.

**El_Gringo_Grande** · 11-01-2008, 12:16 AM

Originally Posted by ScratchMonkey

Most of those "public" resources are fee-based, not tax-based, so one pays based on how much one uses them. And many are privately owned but publicly regulated. If Republicans are using more than their "fair" share, then the fees need to be restructured to reflect actual costs.

Regulation tends to contribute to distorted pricing of resources, because it allows the politically well-connected to rig the prices to favor their own usage while penalizing rivals.

Oh, and Palin and McCain are socialists. They don't mind having the state run industry and distributing its production, "to each according to his needs". And prior to his nomination, most pubbies thought McCain was a liberal. ISTR that the same was true of Bush.

There are very, very few non-socialist people in the world. It is really only a matter of degree.

Edit.

Distortion of prices are a given. Prices are always distorted. They are distorted by lack of information, human emotions, manipulation of markets, false shortages/availability and on and on.

Bad socialists think they can determine the proper price for everything.

Bad free marketers think all services can be regulated by the market alone yet still maintain their humanity.

Neither is true.

**El_Gringo_Grande** · 11-01-2008, 12:25 AM

Originally Posted by Kerostasis

I could then make a case that the specifics of the Alaskan situation are different enough that she is not actually being hypocritical, but I'm not going to bother because I've already decided not to vote for her anyway.

I really don't see how anybody could make that case. Individuals are getting something simply because they are member of a society. Even a dude living in a tiny apartment on the very border of the state with no oil under him gets that money. The government enforces this redistribution.

It may not be classic communism but it is socialism.

**E-Male** · 11-01-2008, 12:50 AM

Originally Posted by ScratchMonkey

Most of those "public" resources are fee-based, not tax-based, so one pays based on how much one uses them.

This is most certainly not the case for 'most' -- behind this public-private issue is a system of government-regulated oligopolies -- such as the corporate use of public airways and the subsequent treatment of the telecommunications spectrum as a private resource.

The history of the U.S. (along with all Western nation-states) clearly attests to how public resources were carved up into private property. A closer look at your economic history will reveal that public taxes and public monies underwrote much of what is now deemed private enterprise.

For example, exactly how much public money has gone into supporting the system of oil production, the construction and maintanence of roads, and the automotive industry. I believe you will find that the answer is 'quite alot'.

Collectively, the system of private transportation as it exists could not have evolved or continue to exist without ongoing subsidies from the public purse. The same holds true for most, if not all, of the infrastructure of late modern capitalistic societies.

**ScratchMonkey** · 11-01-2008, 04:37 AM

Roads were designed for foot traffic and horses and horse-drawn carriages. Only since WWII have they been re-engineered for motor vehicles, and the freeway system was created to move military traffic, with civilians getting it as a side benefit. There was no oil industry when those early roads were built.

Spectrum could be split up and administered like land, but early big players finagled an establishment of regulation to lock out smaller and more nimble upstarts. Even now we see this with the big players doing their best to keep tiny community FM and TV stations locked out by denying them licenses.

Regulation always gets usurped by the big players to lock out smaller competition.

I'll accept Gringo's assertion that government must be "strong", but that strength must be used to define and protect property boundaries (which benefits the small as well as the large), not to protect incumbents. It's this kind of strength that made Hong Kong such an economic power house.

**El_Gringo_Grande** · 11-01-2008, 03:17 PM

Originally Posted by ScratchMonkey

Roads were designed for foot traffic and horses and horse-drawn carriages. Only since WWII have they been re-engineered for motor vehicles, and the freeway system was created to move military traffic, with civilians getting it as a side benefit. There was no oil industry when those early roads were built.

Not really. The whole roadway thing had many origins.

Some where cattle trails created, in part, by the railroad system. Some of the trails also where between ranches and river or gulf ports.

Evan earlier some where pioneer trails used by a western moving population. The military played a role in deciding the more long lasting trails because they located forts along the more popular ones.

Even earlier some where known routes of native Americans.

Even earlier some where migratory paths of the game that Native Americans hunted.

Over time all these things came together along with business, large city, political and military needs to create the road way system we have today. It doesn't have a single, or even a few, origins.

Now politically speaking the limited access highways where created for the movement of troops. But I don't believe that is the only reason they where created. Just the easiest reason to sell during the cold war.

**ScratchMonkey** · 11-01-2008, 04:46 PM

There's how the routes were decided, and there's what resources were put into making them. I doubt most trails required more than frequent travel to "create" them. Certainly no pavement trucks were rolling through in the 18th century, paid for with tax money. When did gravel roads start? I'd guess those were done by locals along the route.

**peardog** · 11-01-2008, 05:02 PM

I kinda laugh at the whole thing.. Seeing that the Sara Palin Sandbox get's way more comments then either of the three other candidates.. And can we all AGREE that PALIN is more of an asset to McCAIN then BIDEN is to OBAMA... I mean Geez.. I am surprised he hasn't started Endorsing DUCT-TAPE yet... (Imagine pic of him with some on his MOUTH!). Not saying BIDEN is a Bad guy... Just not known for his ability to keep foot out of mouth.
And PALIN is the only thing keeping MCCAIN in this thing (As close as it can be at this point). She packs the crowds and excites the Republican Base..something McCAIN cannot do. So like her or hate her.. she does what she is supposed to do.. and you could have brought REAGAN back from the dead to Run with MCCAIN and you wouldn't have gotten a bigger jolt of energy they he did with PALIN..

The only better choice for MCCAIN would have been CLINTON... Oh My!! And Lieberman as chief of staff... ;-)

Everybody over the to the Joe BIDEN Sandbox.. er..do we have one??

**El_Gringo_Grande** · 11-01-2008, 06:07 PM

Originally Posted by ScratchMonkey

There's how the routes were decided, and there's what resources were put into making them. I doubt most trails required more than frequent travel to "create" them. Certainly no pavement trucks were rolling through in the 18th century, paid for with tax money. When did gravel roads start? I'd guess those were done by locals along the route.

Yes. Many of the trails got large amounts of funding through military units and forts. Rail systems also got some support from the government, but it usually wasn't direct.

Most roads where supported at the state/county/city level. But some other highways, like route 66, did get federal funding way before WWII.

**Switch** · 11-01-2008, 08:35 PM

OMG EPIC FAIL! OMFG. HAHAHAHAA
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/20...557/831/649050

Working from CatM's great transcript, I changed a few things, added in the French and explained the cultural references.

SP Assist: This is Betsy.
MA: Hello, Betsy. This is Frank l’ouvrier (Frank the worker], I’m with President Sarkozy, on the line for Governor Palin.

SP Assist: One second please, can you hold on one second please?
MA: No problem.

SP Assist: Hi, I’m going to hand the phone over to her.
MA: Okay thank you very much I’m going to put the president on the line.
SP Assist: Ok he’s coming to the line.

SP: This is Sarah.
MA: Okay, Governor Palin?

SP: Hellloooo...(long drawn out, like Well, hellooooo)
MA: Just hold on for President Sarkozy, one moment.
SP [To someone in the room]: Oh, it’s not him yet, I always do that. I’ll just have people hand it to me right when it’s them.

FNS: Yes, hello, Governor Palin? Yes, hello, Mrs. Governor?
SP: Hello this is Sarah., how are you?

FNS: Fine, and you, this is Nicolas Sarkozy speaking, how are you?
SP: Oh...so good, it’s so good to hear you. Thank you for calling us.

FNS: Oh, it’s a pleasure.
SP: Thank you sir, we have such great respect for you, John McCain and I, we love you and thank you for spending a few minutes to talk to me.

FNS: I follow your campaigns closely with my special American Advisor Johnny Hallyday (the most famous French singer, looks like and sings like Elvis), you know?
SP: Yes! Good!

FNS: Excellent! Are you confident?
SP: Very confident and we’re thankful that the polls are showing that the race is tightening and--

FNS: Well I know very well that the campaign can be exhausting. How do you feel right now my dear?
SP: Ah, I feel so good. I feel like we’re in a marathon and at the very end of the marathon, you get your second wind and you plow to the finish—

FNS: You see, I got elected in France because I’m real and you seem to be someone who’s real as well.
SP: Yes, yeah, Nicolas, we so appreciate this opportunity.

FNS: You know, I see you as a president, one day, you too.
SP: [Muahaaa...weird laugh], maybe in 8 years. Haha

FNS: Well, ah, I hope for you. You know we have a lot in common because personally one of my favorite activities is to hunt too.
SP: [Giggle]o h very good, we should go hunting together.

FNS: Exactly! We could go try hunting by helicopter, like you did, I never did that.
SP: [Giggle]

FNS: Like we say in France, "on pourrait tuer des bébés phoques aussi" [Translation: We could also kill some baby seals.]
SP: [Giggle] Well I think we could have a lot of fun together as we’re getting work done, we can kill two birds with one stone that way.

FNS: I just love killing those animals. Mm, mm. Take away a life, that is so fun!
SP: [Hahahaha]

FNS: I’d really love to go as long as we don’t bring your Vice president Cheney, hahaha.
SP: No, I’ll be a careful shot, yes.

FNS: You know we have a lot in common also except that from my ass I can see Belgium. That’s kind of less interesting than you.
SP: Well, see, we’re right next door to other countries that we all need to be working with, yes.

FNS: Some people said in the last days, and I thought that was mean, that you weren’t experienced enough in foreign relations, and you know, that’s completely false, that’s the thing I said to my great friend, the Prime Minister of Canada, Stef Carse [Stephen Harper is the PM and Stef Carse is a Quebecois country singer who covered Billy Ray Cyrus' Achy Breaky Heart in French in the 90s].
SP: Well, he’s doing fine, too, and yeah when you come into a position underestimated, it gives you the opportunity to prove the pundits and the critics wrong. You work that much harder-

FNS: I, I was wondering because you are also next to him, one of my good friends, also, the prime minister of Quebec, Mr. Richard Z. Sirois [a famous Quebec radio host], have you met him recently? Did he come to one of your rallies?
SP: Uh, haven’t seen him at one of the rallies, but it’s been great working with the Canadian officials in my role as governor; we have a great cooperative effort there as we work on all of our resource development projects. You know I look forward to working with you and getting to meet you personally and your beautiful wife, oh my goodness, you’ve added a lot of energy to your country, even, with that beautiful family of yours.

FNS: Thank you very much. You know my wife, Carla, would love to meet you. You know even though she was a bit jealous that I was supposed to speak to you today. [Hahahaha]
SP: [Hahahha] Well give her a big hug from me.

FNS: You know my wife is a popular singer and a former top model and she’s so hot in bed. She even wrote a song for you.
SP: Oh my goodness! I didn’t know that.

FNS: Yes, in French, it’s called "Du rouge à lèvres sur une cochonne" [Translate: Lipstick for a sow literally (but not properly) but it actually means an uninhibited girl] or if you prefer in English Joe the Plumber, [sings] It’s his life, Joe the Plumber..."
SP: Maybe she understands some of the unfair criticism but I bet you she is such a hard worker, too, and she realizes you just plow through that criticism like

FNS: I just want to be sure, I don’t’ quite understand the phenomenon "Joe the Plumber," that’s not your husband, right?
SP: Mmhmm, that’s into my husband but he’s a normal American who just works hard and doesn’t want government to take his money.

FNS: Yes, yes, I understand, we have the equivalent of Joe the Plumber in France, it’s called, "Marcel, the guy with bread under his armpit, oui."
SP: Right. That’s what it’s all about, is the middle class, and government needing to work for them. You’re a very good example for us here.

FNS: I seen a bit about NBC even Fox News wasn’t an ally, an ally, sorry, about as much as usual.
SP: Yeah that’s what we’re up against.

FNS: I must say, Governor Palin, I love the documentary they made on your life, you know, Hustler’s "Nailin Palin."
SP: Oh, good, thank you. Yes.

FNS: That was really edgy.
SP: [Laughs] Well good.

FNS: I really love you. And I must say something, so, Governor, you’ve been pranked.
By the Master Avengers. We’re two comedians from Montreal
SP: Oohhh have we been pranked? And what radio station is this? [tries to force herself to sound nice but you can tell she’s pissed]

FNS: This is for CKOI in Montreal.
SP: In Montreal? Tell me the radio station call letters
[SP leaves phone, continuous griping in background, sounds like, "For chrissakes...that was ??? Just a radio station prank...chrissakes..."]

MA: Hello? If one voice can change the world for Obama, one Viagra can change the world for McCain.
[Man’s voice in background: hang up, hang up.]
SP Assist: Hi, I’m sorry, I have to let you go. Um, thank you.

**TheFatKidDeath** · 11-01-2008, 09:49 PM

In all it's audio glory:

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JV_IphAIGPg[/media]

**SamO** · 11-01-2008, 11:05 PM

ahhhhh, gold.

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