Re: Atheism

**brain21** · 09-07-2008, 07:09 PM

No, no, annnnnd, no.

What goes on in my mind may not be thinking at all, my body and perceptions and feelings may just be the manifestation of said mind, and tomorrow morning I could be dead, nothing but an empty shell.

Of course I live life that way, at least for the third. The other three wouldn't have much bearing anyway as I wouldn't notice.

**Obi** · 09-07-2008, 07:11 PM

Originally Posted by brain21

No, no, annnnnd, no.

What goes on in my mind may not be thinking at all, my body and perceptions and feelings may just be the manifestation of said mind, and tomorrow morning I could be dead, nothing but an empty shell.

Of course I live life that way, at least for the third. The other three wouldn't have much bearing anyway as I wouldn't notice.

So why should we listen to what you're saying if we can't be sure that you exist?

**ScratchMonkey** · 09-07-2008, 07:17 PM

I guess I'm real reluctant to use the word "prove" by nature. In software, some guys look hard to prove that the bug is in the other guy's code. I work hard to prove that it's not in mine before submitting a bug report to a vendor. If I don't have 100% certainty, I refrain from using that word. (OTOH, when I do turn in a bug report, you can be sure I'm not crying wolf.)

**brain21** · 09-07-2008, 07:19 PM

Originally Posted by Obi

So why should we listen to what you're saying if we can't be sure that you exist?

It passes the time?

**sordavie** · 09-07-2008, 07:24 PM

Originally Posted by ScratchMonkey

I guess I'm real reluctant to use the word "prove" by nature. In software, some guys look hard to prove that the bug is in the other guy's code. I work hard to prove that it's not in mine before submitting a bug report to a vendor. If I don't have 100% certainty, I refrain from using that word. (OTOH, when I do turn in a bug report, you can be sure I'm not crying wolf.)

What do you do to prove that it's not in yours? Do you begin with axioms and end up with their logical entailments? Presumably not. I think what you do when you check your software for bugs is much more similar to what a scientist does to prove that her hypothesis is correct.

**ScratchMonkey** · 09-07-2008, 07:33 PM

Originally Posted by Obi

Can you expand on what you mean by "baseline demonstration"? Perhaps you mean some half decent reasons to believe in God? Let me suggest some:

(I didn't come up with these myself but I agree with them)

1) The universe came into existence from nothing. This suggest a first cause. Something timeless and immaterial.

I can conceive of something from nothing without a cause. What we call "nothing" may not be quite so empty.

I can also conceive of time as static, with all that ever existed and will exist as pre-ordained, even if we can't step outside that existence to affect it. (Hence, I don't believe in free will. That's an illusion created by the way we perceive, similar to our inability to directly experience general relativity or quantum phenomenon.)

2) The fact that the universe is fine tuned to support life. Suggests a designer.

Looking at the entire solar system, the part that can sustain life is microscopic. Most is "designed" to not support life. (Ie. the inability to sustain life suggests lack of design.) We're holding on by our fingernails here.

3) The existence of objective moral values. Some things are wrong. If God doesn't exist you cannot say that some action is objectively wrong.

That sounds circular: God exists because there are objective moral values. Objective moral values are defined by god. (We haven't even established what it means to be moral.)

Honing in on Christianity now
4) The life, death and resurrection of Jesus If Jesus was raised from the dead it gives authority to everything that he claimed.

Certainly a big "if" there. How much credibility can we assign to those claiming this happened? (I'm thinking of some of the more credulous and imaginative TG participants and if they wrote a gospel.)

**Betterdeadthanred** · 09-07-2008, 07:39 PM

Originally Posted by UnDeaD77

I would say, enjoy burning in hell.

Oh my science!

**Betterdeadthanred** · 09-07-2008, 07:56 PM

I might just be odd, but I get a lot of comfort knowing that my time on Earth is limited and it's up to me to make it worthwhile. The very thought of existing for eternity just seems like a great proposition on paper, but when you get down to thinking about it, I mean really thinking about it, do we really want to just continue to exist forever?

Imagine a number with digits the size of atoms stretching across the universe a billion billion times as a number of eons and you would not approach even a speck of the scope that is infinity. Is that really what you want? Considering the impossibly low chance for us to even come into existence, isn't it a tad bit selfish to desire so much more than what we already have? The mere fact that you are even reading this indicates you won the mad race of millions of other candidates that was your conception, so honestly, enjoy your time on this Earth. Live every day to it's fullest. Death is an inevitability, but there is no need to fear it. One must die so that others may experience the amazing things you already have.

That is the philosophy of this Atheist.

**Atomic Dog** · 09-07-2008, 07:58 PM

Originally Posted by ScratchMonkey

Certainly a big "if" there. How much credibility can we assign to those claiming this happened? (I'm thinking of some of the more credulous and imaginative TG participants and if they wrote a gospel.)

It's unlikely that the authors of the biographies of Jesus had any motivation to lie. 2 of them (Mark and Luke) weren't even disciples. Matthew, who was a disciple, was a tax collector...and back in those days that would have put him next to Judas as far as being infamous and despised. John is an issue because nobody's really sure which John authored the Book of John. Could have been John the Disciple or John the Elder.

Luke is particularly interesting because he was Paul's physician. Paul and Luke come on to the scene after the death of Jesus. Luke wrote his biography from eyewitness accounts and interviews he had with people who knew or witnessed Jesus. The fact that Luke's book matches up so well with both Mark and Matthew is a pretty significant factor to take into account. And the other significant fact is that Luke's writings were never intended to be a "Book" per se. They were a collection of letters written to a mysterious greek known only as Theophilus.

Here are the 1st 4 verses of Luke, I find them of importance because they outline his motivation for writing these letters in the first place:

Originally Posted by Luke 1:1-4

1 Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled among us, 2 just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word. 3 Therefore, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, it seemed good also to me to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, 4 so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught.

**brain21** · 09-07-2008, 08:02 PM

I feel the same, Red.

Plus, it makes the time I have alive worth much more.

**FatCobra** · 09-07-2008, 08:04 PM

The way I see it, if we're wrong in believing that Jesus/God are real then when we die nothing happens. But if you're wrong (atheists) then when you die its not gonna be fun.

Rather be safe then sorry :O

**Atomic Dog** · 09-07-2008, 08:08 PM

Originally Posted by Betterdeadthanred

That is the philosophy of this Atheist.

The Philosophy of the Atheist is based around not wanting to live forever? Seems odd. Even as someone who does believe in something, I'm not certain that "eternity" is guaranteed to anybody. And if its guaranteed at all, it's guaranteed to EVERYBODY...even you.

The Philosophy of Atomic Dog is...

To Each Their Own

and

I totally made out with your mother.

It's really much simpler and based around the enjoyment of life, not the notion of eternity. :P

**sordavie** · 09-07-2008, 08:11 PM

Originally Posted by FatCobra

The way I see it, if we're wrong in believing that Jesus/God are real then when we die nothing happens. But if you're wrong (atheists) then when you die its not gonna be fun.

Rather be safe then sorry :O

I take it you've never seen any replies to Pascal's wager? There are some pretty strong reasons to think the argument cannot be valid.

**Skud** · 09-07-2008, 08:19 PM

Originally Posted by j.barker

i am a self worshiping satanist/athiest thank you very much, and if you dont like it, your a wanker.

Originally Posted by j.barker

i beleive in, all these bastard politicians ruined are country, ya we may have a strong military, but are econmy is crap, we got so many illegals, think about the country first, then think about war.. were dying from the inside out because all these black people that kill each other off, sit on there but and do nothing and suck the economy dry because there to lazy to get off there but and work, but does anyone do nothing about it? no they dont, they just take the peoples b.s because were to scared we will offend them, screw being scared and and do something, kick the money suckers out, and let someone hoo is willing to work in, this may be offensive to people, but i could care less, freedom of speech(if we still have it) allowes me to say all this stuff...
oh and i live in the USA

Originally Posted by j.barker

i am not racist, i hate hitler, and im not a white supremicist, i got some black friends, almost all mexican friends, and a couple white friends... i hate some not all, i just hate the little gang banger wannabe's and yes i am 16, but i wont tell no one were i live because i learned to not tell people that, otherwise they will show up at my house

You are such an interesting character, J.Barker.

Since you're a "self worshiping" satanist, wouldn't that make you a complete narcissist? And what would a USA-born person be calling other people "wankers" for? I sense a troll.

If you are indeed a satanist, please explain it's central message. I've actually read the book of Satan, so I'm pretty well versed.