Which are you? - Page 2

**Wolfie** · 01-08-2005, 09:08 PM

Haven't we gone over this discussion before?

Just because something works in one country doesn't mean it would work in another.

Switzerland has the highest gun ownership and low violent crime.

Canada has low gun owernship and low violent crime.

US has a high gun ownership rate and medium to high levels of violent crime.

UK has low gun ownership and medium to high levels of violent crime.

If you don't like the gun laws in the US, you can move to UK or Canada. If you are not a US citizen and don't like the gun laws in the US....well, thanks for your opinion but since your don't live here.....

**DudeMan** · 01-08-2005, 11:18 PM

Quote:

UK has low gun ownership and medium to high levels of violent crime.

I CHALLENGE THAT, the only evidence mentioned was the years report saying figures had risen a small amount on the year before but as for a high rate in comparison to other nations.. i have not seen anything to justify that.

**GhostintheShell** · 01-09-2005, 09:17 AM

Looks like Britain isn't that much more "dangerous" than Canada.
Not too amazing considering the connection between our cultures.

" BRITAIN

London almost last in murder league of 29 Western cities

BY RICHARD FORD HOME CORRESPONDENT

LONDON has one of the lowest homicide rates among European and
American cities. A Home Office study of murder, manslaughter and
infanticide ratios in 29 cities, published yesterday, puts the capital
in
24th place.

It comes below many other EU capitals, including Paris, Berlin
and
Copenhagen, and even beats Geneva and Amsterdam. London's ratio was 2.1
homicides per 100,000 population, compared with the top figure of 69.3
for
Washington DC.

Moscow has the worst record in Europe, with 18.1, compared with

12.5 in Helsinki, 9.7 in Lisbon, 7.7 in Amsterdam, 4.2 in Geneva, 4 in
Copenhagen and 3.3 in Paris.

***********The cities with the lowest rates are Dublin at 1.9, Vienna
1.8,
Rome 1.7, Athens 1.4 and Brussels at 0.4. The cities with the highest
homicide rates are in the United States, with Washington followed by
Philadelphia at 27.4, Dallas 24.8, Los Angeles 22.8 and New York 16.8.
London's figure supports other police statistics showing that
91
per cent of recorded crimes in England and Wales were property offences
and
just 8 per cent, or 350,000, were violent crimes. They back government
claims that the chance of being a victim of violent crime is rare in
London
and elsewhere in England and Wales. Jack Straw, the Home Secretary, said

last night:
*********** "This research shows how rare an event homicide is in this
country. Few people would have guessed that both Amsterdam and Lisbon
have
murder rates more than three times that of London. Moreover, despite
zero-tolerance policies, New York City's homicide rate is eight times
London's rate."

Belfast is 14th in the list with 4.4. The figures are based on
an
average of homicides between 1995 and 1997, so for Belfast they include
the
ending of the first IRA ceasefire. Edinburgh is 22nd with 2.4.

In England and Wales there were 681 homicides in 1996. Two
third
of victims were male. In half the cases involving a male, the main
suspect
was known to the victim, compared with three quarters in cases involving

female victims. The figures show that only 8 per cent of homicide
victims
were shot.

Forty four per cent of women were killed by a current or former
partner, compared with 6 per cent of men; 14 per cent of women were
killed
by a stranger, against 38 per cent of men.

More than half of homicides were blamed on a quarrel, revenge or

loss of temper; 6 per cent were perpetrated during theft; and 4 per cent

happened in cases where the suspect appeared to be mentally disturbed
and
where there was no apparent motive. "

**Wolfie** · 01-09-2005, 09:28 AM

Even if UK doesn't have a high amount of violent crime, how do you explain Switzerland?

**GhostintheShell** · 01-09-2005, 12:03 PM

I don't know anything about Switzerland. I'm guessing from you tossing it out there as an example that they have no gun control, and low crime? or strict gun control and high crime?

Sorry to take this one off topic earlier, if its taking away from the original topic we should get it back on track to the sheep-speech.

**CingularDuality** · 01-09-2005, 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wolfie

Even if UK doesn't have a high amount of violent crime, how do you explain Switzerland?

This story wasn't about violent crime (of which UK has plenty), it was about homicide only.

And the stats are outdated, as Dallas recently overtook DC as the murder capital of the United States...

**CingularDuality** · 01-09-2005, 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GhostintheShell

I don't know anything about Switzerland. I'm guessing from you tossing it out there as an example that they have no gun control, and low crime? or strict gun control and high crime?

Switzerland requires all men to have rifles. Shooting competitions there are like bowling leagues here.

**GhostintheShell** · 01-09-2005, 04:22 PM

Don't they have required service there as well? I wonder what the relationship is between gun homicides and countries with required military service.

**DudeMan** · 01-09-2005, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CingularDuality

This story wasn't about violent crime (of which UK has plenty), it was about homicide only.

And the stats are outdated, as Dallas recently overtook DC as the murder capital of the United States...

London's figure supports other police statistics showing that
91
per cent of recorded crimes in England and Wales were property offences
and
just 8 per cent, or 350,000, were violent crimes. They back government
claims that the chance of being a victim of violent crime is rare in
London

that lists violent crimes, ot just murder, it also lists the property ofenses. as i have said for a long time but people chose to overlook, the violent crime increase was not majour and it was only in relation to last years figures. which on the whole were small in comparison to the rest of the western world.

**DudeMan** · 01-09-2005, 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GhostintheShell

Don't they have required service there as well? I wonder what the relationship is between gun homicides and countries with required military service.

isnt switzerland one of those countries that during the long winter months get less than 5-7 hours sunshine a day, because from last i heard on discovery channel those nations (per populous) have some of the highest suicide rates also i wander if this is a factor for switzerland.

**CingularDuality** · 01-09-2005, 08:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GhostintheShell

Don't they have required service there as well? I wonder what the relationship is between gun homicides and countries with required military service.

I'm not sure if they have mandatory active duty, but all men of fighting age are required to be part of the reserve army, hence the requirement for a rifle.

Have you ever read the book Starship Troopers by Robert Heinlein? Forget about the movie, it doesn't follow the book at all... The book is set in the future, where military service is a requirement for citizenship. Very interesting concept...

**DudeMan** · 01-09-2005, 09:02 PM

Very interesting concept...

and by interesting i hope you mean ridiculous.

**leejo** · 01-09-2005, 09:13 PM

This charming post reminds me of another you recently made:

Quote:

i think ill just wait for someone that does not answer the questions posed to the entire forum with insults and condecending language.

*sigh*

**GhostintheShell** · 01-09-2005, 09:47 PM

To be honest Cing, I would be a lot more "for" the idea of home protection etc. if everyone was required to do a period of mandatory military service, and be on a reserve army like in Switzerland. This is just based from what I've read today regarding Switzerland.

This is IMO, the very reason they have high numbers of guns and very low gun related crime. To use your own original post, everyone is a "potential sheepdog", but the part I agree with is that they would have a much higher level of training than the average "Joe Public" does now.

In Switzerland, everyone is potentially a "sheepdog" you can trust to handle and shoot properly and safely.

**Wolfie** · 01-09-2005, 11:02 PM

My obscured point in this thread is that if you are concerned about gun safety, trying to remove guns from law abiding citizens is going about it the wrong way. You should be pushing more for proper handling instructions given to gun owners.

01-08-2005, 09:08 PM	#16 (permalink)
Wolfie Join Date: May 2003 Location: Michigan Age: 33 Posts: 1,405	Re: Which are you? Haven't we gone over this discussion before? Just because something works in one country doesn't mean it would work in another. Switzerland has the highest gun ownership and low violent crime. Canada has low gun owernship and low violent crime. US has a high gun ownership rate and medium to high levels of violent crime. UK has low gun ownership and medium to high levels of violent crime. If you don't like the gun laws in the US, you can move to UK or Canada. If you are not a US citizen and don't like the gun laws in the US....well, thanks for your opinion but since your don't live here.....

01-09-2005, 09:17 AM	#18 (permalink)
GhostintheShell Join Date: May 2003 Location: Guelph, Ontario Age: 37 Posts: 963	Re: Which are you? Looks like Britain isn't that much more "dangerous" than Canada. Not too amazing considering the connection between our cultures. " BRITAIN London almost last in murder league of 29 Western cities BY RICHARD FORD HOME CORRESPONDENT LONDON has one of the lowest homicide rates among European and American cities. A Home Office study of murder, manslaughter and infanticide ratios in 29 cities, published yesterday, puts the capital in 24th place. It comes below many other EU capitals, including Paris, Berlin and Copenhagen, and even beats Geneva and Amsterdam. London's ratio was 2.1 homicides per 100,000 population, compared with the top figure of 69.3 for Washington DC. Moscow has the worst record in Europe, with 18.1, compared with 12.5 in Helsinki, 9.7 in Lisbon, 7.7 in Amsterdam, 4.2 in Geneva, 4 in Copenhagen and 3.3 in Paris. *********The cities with the lowest rates are Dublin at 1.9, Vienna 1.8, Rome 1.7, Athens 1.4 and Brussels at 0.4. The cities with the highest homicide rates are in the United States, with Washington followed by Philadelphia at 27.4, Dallas 24.8, Los Angeles 22.8 and New York 16.8. London's figure supports other police statistics showing that 91 per cent of recorded crimes in England and Wales were property offences and just 8 per cent, or 350,000, were violent crimes. They back government claims that the chance of being a victim of violent crime is rare in London and elsewhere in England and Wales. Jack Straw, the Home Secretary, said last night: ********* "This research shows how rare an event homicide is in this country. Few people would have guessed that both Amsterdam and Lisbon have murder rates more than three times that of London. Moreover, despite zero-tolerance policies, New York City's homicide rate is eight times London's rate." Belfast is 14th in the list with 4.4. The figures are based on an average of homicides between 1995 and 1997, so for Belfast they include the ending of the first IRA ceasefire. Edinburgh is 22nd with 2.4. In England and Wales there were 681 homicides in 1996. Two third of victims were male. In half the cases involving a male, the main suspect was known to the victim, compared with three quarters in cases involving female victims. The figures show that only 8 per cent of homicide victims were shot. Forty four per cent of women were killed by a current or former partner, compared with 6 per cent of men; 14 per cent of women were killed by a stranger, against 38 per cent of men. More than half of homicides were blamed on a quarrel, revenge or loss of temper; 6 per cent were perpetrated during theft; and 4 per cent happened in cases where the suspect appeared to be mentally disturbed and where there was no apparent motive. "

01-09-2005, 09:28 AM	#19 (permalink)
Wolfie Join Date: May 2003 Location: Michigan Age: 33 Posts: 1,405	Re: Which are you? Even if UK doesn't have a high amount of violent crime, how do you explain Switzerland?

01-09-2005, 12:03 PM	#20 (permalink)
GhostintheShell Join Date: May 2003 Location: Guelph, Ontario Age: 37 Posts: 963	Re: Which are you? I don't know anything about Switzerland. I'm guessing from you tossing it out there as an example that they have no gun control, and low crime? or strict gun control and high crime? Sorry to take this one off topic earlier, if its taking away from the original topic we should get it back on track to the sheep-speech.

01-09-2005, 04:22 PM	#23 (permalink)
GhostintheShell Join Date: May 2003 Location: Guelph, Ontario Age: 37 Posts: 963	Re: Which are you? Don't they have required service there as well? I wonder what the relationship is between gun homicides and countries with required military service.

01-09-2005, 09:02 PM	#27 (permalink)
DudeMan Join Date: May 2003 Location: london England Age: 22 Posts: 3,258	Re: Which are you? Very interesting concept... and by interesting i hope you mean ridiculous. __________________ The Queen "Those who perpetrate these brutal acts against innocent people should know that they will not change our way of life," *Atrocities such as these simply reinforce our sense of community* TheFeniX "Guns don't kill people: effeminate men in green tunics do"

01-09-2005, 09:47 PM	#29 (permalink)
GhostintheShell Join Date: May 2003 Location: Guelph, Ontario Age: 37 Posts: 963	Re: Which are you? To be honest Cing, I would be a lot more "for" the idea of home protection etc. if everyone was required to do a period of mandatory military service, and be on a reserve army like in Switzerland. This is just based from what I've read today regarding Switzerland. This is IMO, the very reason they have high numbers of guns and very low gun related crime. To use your own original post, everyone is a "potential sheepdog", but the part I agree with is that they would have a much higher level of training than the average "Joe Public" does now. In Switzerland, everyone is potentially a "sheepdog" you can trust to handle and shoot properly and safely. Last edited by GhostintheShell; 01-09-2005 at 10:05 PM.

01-09-2005, 11:02 PM	#30 (permalink)
Wolfie Join Date: May 2003 Location: Michigan Age: 33 Posts: 1,405	Re: Which are you? My obscured point in this thread is that if you are concerned about gun safety, trying to remove guns from law abiding citizens is going about it the wrong way. You should be pushing more for proper handling instructions given to gun owners.

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