Which are you? - Page 4

**TheFeniX** · 06-21-2005, 01:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DudeMan

see you dont read, read the bloody posts and you will be clued in...

Sometimes it's just flat-out impossible to understand what you've typed. So sue me.

Quote:

i said, he made a mistake with his wording, implying that more americans needed killing, in what i thought he meant was, per population this is more likly, i.e, america has so many more people that the UK that more killings is not a surprise. which is 100% true.

If it's 100% true then you shouldn't have any problems providing just one worthwhile link from a credible source.

Buck Fush · 06-21-2005, 11:50 AM

Sorry Cing, didn't mean to hijack your thread with a bad joke. Please people get off my joke, it wasn't even funny. DudeMan, I appreciate the gesture.

micr0c0sm · 06-21-2005, 12:07 PM

Excellent read. I'll turn it over in my head for a bit and get back to it.

**CingularDuality** · 06-21-2005, 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shroompicker

Everyone, will you READ Cig's post?

Actually, the way you're acting, Cig, you seem to have not read your own post either! You're trying to convert a sheep into a sheepdog, the story says that this is impossible. DudeMan doesn't have the power to take your weapon away from you. He's not even in this country, and if he were, I doubt he ever would be. Those people in positions that do have the power to take your weapon away from you are either wolves of sheepdogs themselves, sheep can't make it.

The only time I see people like that do have a say is as a juror. It's never a clear shoot / no-shoot case, in fact it's always a case where you'd wish you as a juror could throw all the defendants and the prosection's "victims" into jail. The lawyers select an even mix of extremist kool-aid drinkers on both sides of the fence, and put them in the pit to fight. Then you get to hear all the spin-masters' best work come to action.

This is not about politics, this is about life in general... Dudeman is a sheepdog, his actions have proven that. His politics regarding gun control don't change that a bit.

Guns are tools that sheepdogs often use, but they're just tools. It doesn't matter if it's a gun, a sword or fists, though. There are sheep that are afraid of seing those tools, until they need a sheepdog using them to protect them...

Quote:

Cig, I think you're suffering from an extreme failure in your victim selection process. Perhaps you should consider carrying _quietly_. I think you'll save yourself a lot of heartache.

I'm not interested in saving myself any heartburn.

I buy TUMS by the case, anyway...

Root · 06-21-2005, 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DudeMan

Very interesting concept...

and by interesting i hope you mean ridiculous.

Ridiculous how?

Only just picked up on this thread. As one who first read starship troopers 20 years ago, I know what Cing's talking about. I think there are some very interesting notions in the book. I also like the one about not letting a soldier be an officer unless he's already seen combat as a private or NCO.

Root

Wintermute · 06-21-2005, 04:56 PM

When I first read this thread 9 months ago I dismissed it as right wing NRA wooly thinking (couldn't resist the sheep j/k), however my views have changed in that time. I still think the whole sheep/wolves/sheepdog classification is an oversimplification and not exactly self-depreciating on the part of the self-proclamed sheepdogs.

Having learnt a lot of martial arts for self defence purposes in the last nine months I can now see where the idea is coming from though. It is better to stand up for yourself and make sure you are not a victim. I am starting to reach the point in my training where I would hope to be able to defend myself against any brawler on the street, although that isn't the case until it has been tested and I hope it never will be. Two of my close friends have been the victims of violent robberies in their own homes in that time so the need for some kind of defence has been really impressed upon me.

In the UK carrying a gun for self defence is just massive overkill. Only yardies get shot at here. In the US I get the impression that at least the fear of gun crime is much higher. I would lay money that per-capita gun crime is also higher but don't have any statistics to hand.

Anyway, I don't want to turn this into yet another gun legalisation thread. The point is about not being a sheep and I increasingly think it an important one.

On a side note it would be a good idea if us Brits stopped making jokes about the Americans and if the Americans stopped taking us seriously. You have to understand that we are one country which is made up of four countries who take the piss out each other constantly, yet also co-operate constantly, although used to kill each other very severely. Kind of like some strange polygamous marriage with loads of baggage but a great sex life...

But seriously, take me seriously about not taking me seriously... And take me seriously about that last sentance too. But don't take anything after this seriously.... unless I am being serious...

**TheFeniX** · 06-21-2005, 05:08 PM

You don't even need to take physical action to be a sheepdog. It could be something as simple as looking people in the eye and saying "Hello" to them. I do my best to notice everything in my surroundings. I see people constantly just staring at the ground with their heads down. Then almost have a heart attack when I speak to them.

If I see someone walking suspiciously, I look directly at them, wave and say a greeting. Sometimes they nod back, sometimes they immediately scurry off, and sometimes I have a conversation with them and find out they need some help even though at first glance I'd swear they'd be robbing people. That's why I constantly train myself to look past what society expects a person should act like.

Don't just keep walking when you hear a car alarm go off or if you see something suspicious going on.

Don't say "Someone should do something." You should be saying "I'm someone and I need to do something." Police Officers can have all the training in the world, but the biggest obstacle is to overcome the "Fight or Flight" response and get them to act when they are needed. You should be able to do the same.

**DudeMan** · 06-21-2005, 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheFeniX

Sometimes it's just flat-out impossible to understand what you've typed. So sue me.

If it's 100% true then you shouldn't have any problems providing just one worthwhile link from a credible source.

see now why did you have to follow up with the condecending behavior, if you didnt understand it fine,

and again, it seems you didnt understand, ok... to the comment made by fush, about the possibel reason why the original might be true, i gave a thumbs up agreement, i di not make the secondary statement...

anyhow, moving on from a chewed up joke, im glad you saw the funny side fush, sorry your comment was dragged into that.

**leejo** · 06-21-2005, 06:12 PM

I pimp sheepdogs and make them fetch my beer and I only hit them cause I care.

**DudeMan** · 06-21-2005, 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Root

Ridiculous how?

Only just picked up on this thread. As one who first read starship troopers 20 years ago, I know what Cing's talking about. I think there are some very interesting notions in the book. I also like the one about not letting a soldier be an officer unless he's already seen combat as a private or NCO.

Root

ok i read the posts again, and i am just not happy with the notion, that one must do military service to be a citizen. this by definition means a pacifist, either has to go against their entire belief system to advance in society, or be held back because they hold their belief strong.

the military is not for everyone, nor should it be, IMO... thats my problem with the notion, im sure there are many other valid comments you would agree with from the book, but i disagree with the stated argument cing put forward, for the reasons given.

**DudeMan** · 06-21-2005, 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leejo

I pimp sheepdogs and make them fetch my beer and I only hit them cause I care.

classic wife beater...

Root · 06-21-2005, 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DudeMan

ok i read the posts again, and i am just not happy with the notion, that one must do military service to be a citizen. this by definition means a pacifist, either has to go against their entire belief system to advance in society, or be held back because they hold their belief strong.

That would be a side effect, but the concept is that you only get to vote (as well as get certain jobs such as a police officer) if you've put the needs of society before your own life by serving a term in the forces.

Root

shroompicker · 06-22-2005, 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Root

That would be a side effect, but the concept is that you only get to vote (as well as get certain jobs such as a police officer) if you've put the needs of society before your own life by serving a term in the forces.

I think the Starship Troopers government only makes sense if you have a genuine enemy to mankind, like they did. If you can't fight to keep everyone alive, then have your happy, isolated life, but don't expect to have a say in where society goes. I'd imagine that without the brainbugs those citizens would get lazy and mean to the civillians really fast. Same with Communism, it only works when absolutely everyone is about to starve to death.

--
Shroom

**TheFeniX** · 06-22-2005, 05:20 PM

But were the bugs actually their enemy? And if they were, was that because they wanted to conquer mankind or because mankind began invading their territory?

It's been years since I've read the book, but if you take the movies example (which is a poor rendition of the book, but a great popcorn flick), the bugs were goaded into war as a means to control Earth's population, circa 1984. Even before the war was official there was a great ditrust created by the government.

Keeping people in fear of external threats is always a great way to keep people from analyzing the internal ones.

Requiring people to serve in the military in order to vote or be a "true" citizen also has others issues with freedom. If someone is forced into rank and file living for 4 years, it's easier to indoctrinate those people into thinking the way you want them to.

**DudeMan** · 06-22-2005, 06:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Root

That would be a side effect, but the concept is that you only get to vote (as well as get certain jobs such as a police officer) if you've put the needs of society before your own life by serving a term in the forces.

Root

well yes, but is that really freedom? where is the line drawn between putting society first, and doing what the army says or no citizenship. im sorry, i think this argument is very much like the communist theory. in theory, it is an ideal world where all is fair and equal, but it cannot happen because human nature is to cheat.

putting voting power in the hands of an organisation or qualification only reduces your freedom because thos who choose not to go in the army do so through their own free will. you are removing that by placing the choice with a need, to get benefits, that are supposed to be a right.

and further more what makes military service so damned respectable anyway, yes many servicement are respectable individuals, but they are still individuals, what about the scandals at abu gharib, lindie england has done military service, and many more people who tortured prisoners and got away with it, they are not respectable or any more entitled to vote than anyone else. its still the individual that counts, not the organisation.

06-21-2005, 11:50 AM	#47 (permalink)
Buck Fush Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Littleton, CO Posts: 608	Re: Which are you? Sorry Cing, didn't mean to hijack your thread with a bad joke. Please people get off my joke, it wasn't even funny. DudeMan, I appreciate the gesture.

06-21-2005, 12:07 PM	#48 (permalink)
micr0c0sm Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 660	Re: Which are you? Excellent read. I'll turn it over in my head for a bit and get back to it.

06-21-2005, 04:56 PM	#51 (permalink)
Wintermute Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: UK Age: 24 Posts: 1,166	Re: Which are you? When I first read this thread 9 months ago I dismissed it as right wing NRA wooly thinking (couldn't resist the sheep j/k), however my views have changed in that time. I still think the whole sheep/wolves/sheepdog classification is an oversimplification and not exactly self-depreciating on the part of the self-proclamed sheepdogs. Having learnt a lot of martial arts for self defence purposes in the last nine months I can now see where the idea is coming from though. It is better to stand up for yourself and make sure you are not a victim. I am starting to reach the point in my training where I would hope to be able to defend myself against any brawler on the street, although that isn't the case until it has been tested and I hope it never will be. Two of my close friends have been the victims of violent robberies in their own homes in that time so the need for some kind of defence has been really impressed upon me. In the UK carrying a gun for self defence is just massive overkill. Only yardies get shot at here. In the US I get the impression that at least the fear of gun crime is much higher. I would lay money that per-capita gun crime is also higher but don't have any statistics to hand. Anyway, I don't want to turn this into yet another gun legalisation thread. The point is about not being a sheep and I increasingly think it an important one. On a side note it would be a good idea if us Brits stopped making jokes about the Americans and if the Americans stopped taking us seriously. You have to understand that we are one country which is made up of four countries who take the piss out each other constantly, yet also co-operate constantly, although used to kill each other very severely. Kind of like some strange polygamous marriage with loads of baggage but a great sex life... But seriously, take me seriously about not taking me seriously... And take me seriously about that last sentance too. But don't take anything after this seriously.... unless I am being serious... __________________ Wintermute Play EVE online. It's like being an accounting addict in space. www.MakePovertyHistory.com

06-21-2005, 05:08 PM	#52 (permalink)
TheFeniX Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Houston, TX Age: 26 Posts: 4,478	Re: Which are you? You don't even need to take physical action to be a sheepdog. It could be something as simple as looking people in the eye and saying "Hello" to them. I do my best to notice everything in my surroundings. I see people constantly just staring at the ground with their heads down. Then almost have a heart attack when I speak to them. If I see someone walking suspiciously, I look directly at them, wave and say a greeting. Sometimes they nod back, sometimes they immediately scurry off, and sometimes I have a conversation with them and find out they need some help even though at first glance I'd swear they'd be robbing people. That's why I constantly train myself to look past what society expects a person should act like. Don't just keep walking when you hear a car alarm go off or if you see something suspicious going on. Don't say "Someone should do something." You should be saying "I'm someone and I need to do something." Police Officers can have all the training in the world, but the biggest obstacle is to overcome the "Fight or Flight" response and get them to act when they are needed. You should be able to do the same. __________________ - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - TheFeniX's Steam Profile TG's Team Fortress 2 Steam Group

06-21-2005, 06:12 PM	#54 (permalink)
leejo Join Date: Sep 2003 Age: 39 Posts: 7,839	Re: Which are you? I pimp sheepdogs and make them fetch my beer and I only hit them cause I care.

06-22-2005, 05:20 PM	#59 (permalink)
TheFeniX Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Houston, TX Age: 26 Posts: 4,478	Re: Which are you? But were the bugs actually their enemy? And if they were, was that because they wanted to conquer mankind or because mankind began invading their territory? It's been years since I've read the book, but if you take the movies example (which is a poor rendition of the book, but a great popcorn flick), the bugs were goaded into war as a means to control Earth's population, circa 1984. Even before the war was official there was a great ditrust created by the government. Keeping people in fear of external threats is always a great way to keep people from analyzing the internal ones. Requiring people to serve in the military in order to vote or be a "true" citizen also has others issues with freedom. If someone is forced into rank and file living for 4 years, it's easier to indoctrinate those people into thinking the way you want them to. __________________ - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - TheFeniX's Steam Profile TG's Team Fortress 2 Steam Group

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