IceCold

So very true...
Also true. I don't think that Heinlein meant that veterans automatically made great citizens, only that, in general, they made better citizens than those who had not put their life on the line for their society...

DudeMan

ahh ok, well ill agree to a point with that, but would you not say the same thing about social workers, charity activists, etc etc... i think whilst it is (now you said that ) a good point, it is limited by its apeal.

a comprimise maybe, like a citizen points, the more things you do to help out, the more points you get, the more points you have the better your benefits.... ok im rambling here, i would still disagree with myself because of the freedom point i made anyway...

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The Queen
"Those who perpetrate these brutal acts against innocent people should know that they will not change our way of life,"
Atrocities such as these simply reinforce our sense of community

TheFeniX
"Guns don't kill people: effeminate men in green tunics do"

IceCold

Yeah, freedom gets in the way of some of my good ideas, too...

I still think that mandatory 100% reversible vasectomies at birth is an interesting idea when combined with the fact that you can't get it reversed until you pass an extensive parenting course. I know it's wrong to even think that that's a good idea, but every day I'm disgusted by the number of people that I see that obviously know how to breed, but don't know how to be a parent...

DudeMan

agreed, amnesty would lynch you, but i will agree, unfortunatly schools and parents are not education their kids eough these days, i was taught very young the dangers of having to pay child support should i have an acident... i always wear a rubber now....

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The Queen
"Those who perpetrate these brutal acts against innocent people should know that they will not change our way of life,"
Atrocities such as these simply reinforce our sense of community

TheFeniX
"Guns don't kill people: effeminate men in green tunics do"

Root

If ever a point was proven beyond doubt.....

Seriously though, Dudeman and Cing are spot on. Unfortunately, social services and schools are more worried about going after parents who smack their kids when its needed.

There's a kid at my sons school who's 6 years old, and goes round using extremely foul language, and hitting other kids. When we complained to the teacher she was more interested in how our boy doesn't pay attention. We already know that, and he'd would have got a good smack after parents evening, except a bunch of woolly thinking do gooders went and passed a stupid law that would mean we'd be arrested for smacking him. Meanwhile, no one cares about the kid causing the trouble, and his mother certainly isn't fit for the job. Social services are monitoring the family for what good it will do....

Bring back the cane in schools, don't give parents the *right* to smack their kids when its deserved, force upon them a *legal responsibility* to do so. Oh and when criminals are convicted, instead of giving them community service, or a caution, or some paltry fine, erect the whipping post in the town square, and have the town crier read out the conviction and sentence of the court. Damn Heinlein has some good ideas in his books

Root

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Wintermute

Similarly, democracy is a great idea but people don't vote the way they are supposed to. People voted for Hitler, Thatcher and two Bushes. Chairman Wintermute would run a tighter ship. First off, I would execute everyone who believes in capital punishment.

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Wintermute

Play EVE online. It's like being an accounting addict in space.

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Buck Fush

Here, here.
A few years ago a mother made national news for smacking the hell out her child in the back of her SUV because it was "Caught on Tape". My ass met my mom's hand at least a few times a week growing up, but now a child gets spanked and it's national news. A comedian I heard soon afterwards said when her mom saw the video, her first response was, "I wonder what the child did to deserve that"?

DudeMan

oh oh oh the irony.... sorry, but i had to after your ripping of my bad grammar,

anyhow, root i think you place too much importance into this new law, it does not say that you cannot smack a child, it says you cant smack so hard as to leave a red hand print.

which either means you cant smack them hard, or you just have to use a cane across the souls of their feet.... you choose.

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The Queen
"Those who perpetrate these brutal acts against innocent people should know that they will not change our way of life,"
Atrocities such as these simply reinforce our sense of community

TheFeniX
"Guns don't kill people: effeminate men in green tunics do"

DudeMan

yeah how did that silly tart get power in this country.

oh and fush, the cain... if everyone wants to continue to blaim schools for chilldren these days they need to stop and think... kids were no better off when the cain was in, we stiull had murders, old ladys being mugged, rape, etc etc., its strange how people that say when the cane was in schools kids were better behaved, yet all the kids were getting the cain regualr.

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The Queen
"Those who perpetrate these brutal acts against innocent people should know that they will not change our way of life,"
Atrocities such as these simply reinforce our sense of community

TheFeniX
"Guns don't kill people: effeminate men in green tunics do"

9 v

i've got two very well behaved, well mannered and delightful children of whom i'm very proud, and in 12 years (combined) of parenting, i've never smacked them once, for anything.

Not saying it's for everyone, but i try to use my brain to educate my kids rather than my hand.

CingularDuality

That's great. I know that kids can be raised without physically disciplining them.

Let's not look at individual cases, though... Looking at society in general, we see that kids aren't being spanked/smacked as much and that they are more misbehaved.

Is this correlation or causation? I don't know. I think that there's more to kids misbehavior than just a lack of discipline at home. I think that media (TV, radio, video games) influence and the lack of participation in team sports has a lot to do with it as well...

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TheFeniX

I know you were just musing when you thought of this, but take into account: who pays for both the surgeries? Who pays when they go wrong and a person loses their ability to reproduce permanently? Who pays for the parenting class? Who determines what constitutes a "good" parent?

There's a Hell of a lot more to the equation than "Stop people from having kids unless you want them to = no more bad parents and kids."

The whole concept behind a "free country" is putting up with stuff you don't agree with.

Yea, I saw that video. That wasn't a spanking, the mother was literally beating the kid about the face and head when it was in the car seat, repeatedly for almost 15 seconds. That falls under the classification of "deadly force" (in the Texas sense at least).

That's not discipline. That's beating your kid because you are frustrated with them.

It's the same logic people tried to apply to the whole coffee burn at McDonalds. Yes, the lady wasn't smart to put hot coffee between her legs. But when it spilled on her she got third degree burns on her crotch. No coffee should be hot enough to do that.

Anyways, the point is: there's more to a story than just what the media tells you.

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TheFeniX

One theory I've read into: Society is evolving faster than the human mind can keep up with. School is no longer a place for kids to learn at their own rate. It's almost gone to a complete preparation for the kids future trade. The pressure just builds on them. People that immature cannot be expected to take it that well.

Oh and team sports have to be the biggest waste of money in high schools. Spending millions on a new stadium while leaving all the actually useful classes with old text-books, out-dated computers, and broken lab equipment is what makes the ISD system pathetic.

Anyways, I go go on for pages why the American school system fails. But it makes me sad to think about it. We'll save it for another time.

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CingularDuality

Blasphemy!!!!

The best coffee is brewed around 200 degrees F. Well, just under boiling, anyway... All properly brewed coffee is capable of causing third degree burns.

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TheFeniX

I'd like to point out that "McDonalds" and "properly brewed(prepared)" don't belong in the same sentence.

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