Re: The argument against marijuana, and other drugs legalization

**El_Gringo_Grande** · 05-07-2009, 11:17 PM

The reason it is illegal because more people gain from it being illegal than gain from it being legal.

Most casual users can still get what they want plus they get a tickle from breaking the law and thumbing their nose at the man.

Many addicts see the damage they are doing to themselves and don't see any benefit in making their hell legal.

A significant number of people make a lot of money because it is illegal. This includes not only the dealers but also some parts of law enforcement.

A number of people just don't like drugs. Maybe they are silly or uninformed, but they vote and they don't like them and that is all that matters.

Much of the rest don't use them so don't really care. They have higher priorities and fighting over drugs, one way or the other, takes a back seat.

What do we gain in making them legal?

Pro: Would save money in law enforcement and free up jail sppace.
Con: People loose jobs.

Pro: Remove much power from the illegal drug traffickers.
Con: ?

Pro: Reduce significantly the court cases.
Con: ?

Pro: I think if drug availability was based on science (i.e. actual addictive quality and the like) fewer people would be exposed to the truly bad drugs.
Con: More people would be exposed and use the "safer" drugs and some couldn't handle it.

The argument of "If you legalize one you have to legalize them all" doesn't hold water. We have varying speed limits for logical reasons and people accept them. There would be no problem keeping crack illegal while selling pot in the convenience store.

Delta*RandyShugart* · 05-08-2009, 01:10 PM

fenix, i might be jumping the gun, but you obviously don't have any family members or friends who are alcoholics/addicts, or you haven't tried or been in the presence of people doing harder drugs.....

If you want to see some data, in person, go to some AA meetings, or AA meetings held at rehab centers, also go to some AA meetings which are held for family members (i forgot the name of those), then you can see how drugs/alcohol effects different people and the families around them.

I do agree with the legalization of Marijuana for those who are terminally ill, because lets face it, if i am on my way out, or have an inoperable tumor etc, i want to be in the least amount of pain possible, however I wouldn't want to constantly take oxycontin (who knows, i am not terminally ill, however oxy is basically a pill form which has been associated with heroin as in effects etc), and maybe having a joint here and there would relieve my pain and relax my mind and body. - Once again I am not terminally ill but I do understand for terminally ill patients why marijuana should be legal.

**CingularDuality** · 05-08-2009, 03:50 PM

Did I miss where Fenix said that drug addiction is a good thing?

**Gambit7** · 05-08-2009, 08:57 PM

In the immortal words of Rick James:
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PR_rzF8ofw[/media]

Now, I've never physically tried the stuff, but that's because I was exposed to it and its effects at an extremely early age (long stories). I'm half-Bahamian, so that's kind of obvious. I'm also from South Florida, so the stuff is everywhere. Being a 3rd generation boat captain doesnt help either.

Sticky has all of this spot on. There really is no comparison between crack and anything else, although I've seen people go down the deepend just from blow. You really have to be exposed to people on a personal level to feel how bad some of this junk really is. When I was young, a child of the "Say No To Drugs" campaign, I must say most of the money spent on the propaganda they fed us was wasted. (all the videos, cops showing up with displays, etc.)

You wanna know what worked? In 6th grade my teachers brought in a girl from Camillus House (sort of a halfway house for troubled girls); she was beautiful... but she was an addict of many, many drugs. She kept combing her hair with this brush... over, and over, and over with a blank look on her face while she told her story in front of the whole class. Let me tell you, there's no way in hell today's America would even allow this type of stuff told to their children. And that's what's truly phucked up about the "War on Drugs," because they really have no clue what keeps people from making mistakes... and that's learning from others. You could hear a pindrop in that classroom while she told her tale. I've never experienced anything like it since... and it probably single-handedly kept me away from even trying any kind of addictive substances. Her story makes Sticky's look like a Sunday sermon.

Now, I have done a fair share of MJ though mostly back in college (sometimes with opium, in an ornate ritualistic chalice; oh la la... with a cher bidi too), along with some party nitrous... while we recite prose. And that's about it; nowadays though I do nothing, not even drink. I wont touch coke, crack, heroin, meth, or any of those sorts of drugs either. And that's simply because I grew up watching too many good people go down because of em, including the girl in my class.

All this money they spend on drug prevention should be funneled towards programs like Camillus House; and those people should be telling their stories, not sitting in jail where they dont belong. That's the only way people will learn and the only real way to keep it off the streets. Nowadays we just shield our kids and throw everyone in jail; along with creating wars over the stuff (A-Stan is the latest example).

I'm rambling now, so I'll just say MJ should not be illegal. Not by any stretch of the imagination. These other substances though, should NEVER be easily gotten. The best way to defeat stuff like crack and meth imo is to do just what some of you have suggested, and that's legalize MJ (which will serve as a gentler "outlet" drug also) and parlay the money saved into effective prevention/education.

None of these substances should be treated as a felony though if embibed, not even on the scale of a DUI (unless they're driving), and definitely not as there was a victim involved... like it is today. These people arent criminals, they're just troubled... many times for more reasons than just the drugs. They should be able, in America, to get good help for free. Not thrown into the streets like yesterday's trash.

**ScratchMonkey** · 05-11-2009, 05:01 AM

If we can't trust people to make the right decision about heroin and crack, then we also can't trust them with beer and video games. We need to criminalize the latter, too, because the populace are all children who will kill us all from their infatuation with Counter-Strike, Doom, and all those terrible substances. Did you know that Lawn Darts can't be sold in most countries because of idiots killing each other with them through misuse? Maybe it's time to check everyone into straight jackets as unsuitable for civilization.

**sordavie** · 05-11-2009, 05:02 AM

Originally Posted by ScratchMonkey

If we can't trust people to make the right decision about heroin and crack, then we also can't trust them with beer and video games. We need to criminalize the latter, too, because the populace are all children who will kill us all from their infatuation with Counter-Strike, Doom, and all those terrible substances. Did you know that Lawn Darts can't be sold in most countries because of idiots killing each other with them through misuse? Maybe it's time to check everyone into straight jackets as unsuitable for civilization.

This is clearly a bad slippery slope argument and you know it.

**stickyjeans69** · 05-11-2009, 05:34 AM

Originally Posted by ScratchMonkey

If we can't trust people to make the right decision about heroin and crack, then we also can't trust them with beer and video games. We need to criminalize the latter, too, because the populace are all children who will kill us all from their infatuation with Counter-Strike, Doom, and all those terrible substances. Did you know that Lawn Darts can't be sold in most countries because of idiots killing each other with them through misuse? Maybe it's time to check everyone into straight jackets as unsuitable for civilization.

Beer and Video games =/= Heroin and Crack,

I hope that was a light-hearted "Sarcastic" Argument..

**Iamthefallen** · 05-11-2009, 11:53 AM

IMHO, one of the most fundamental rights you have is the right to life, the right to defend your life, the right to end your life, and the right to screw your life up terribly.

In regards to drugs you can say after the fact that you had no idea it was so addictive, but it's your responsibility to do your homework beforehand.

I do not want to pay for your jail sentence for buying/selling/using/possessing drugs, I'd much rather pay for your rehab, and see you be able to get a job as a responsible citizen when you turn your life around.

Locking people up and creating felons "for their own good" doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

**Gambit7** · 05-11-2009, 12:24 PM

Originally Posted by Iamthefallen

IMHO, one of the most fundamental rights you have is the right to life, the right to defend your life, the right to end your life, and the right to screw your life up terribly.

Actually, I'm pretty sure it's against the Constitution to commit suicide, or try to. I could be wrong though.

**Iamthefallen** · 05-11-2009, 01:33 PM

Use the powers of google to find out for sure.

**Diplomatic_Immunity** · 05-11-2009, 01:48 PM

After reading good arguments from both sides of the issue I thought maybe how I would formulate my own opinion. I suppose I could go into a plethora of reasons but I'll just relay my simplest reasons in an already over opinionated thread.

The money used fighting the war on drugs could be easily used to properly educate people. This education would be factual and not biased in any way. While there are certain drugs that are terrible and deserve to be illegal I can't seem to advocate their illegality.

If you can have tobacco and alcohol why can't you have the rest? Each substance is in inebriate that is detrimental to your health.

It's like going into a bakery and only being allowed to buy chocolate and strawberry cake when you really want to try all the other flavors. In society however the word "drug" comes with a negative connotation deeply rooted in peoples subconscious beginning with early propaganda films of the 1930's. So, maybe as some of the older more rigid politicians start to die off more liberal laws will come to fruition.

**Kerostasis** · 05-11-2009, 01:48 PM

The constitution does not address the concept of suicide at all. It is against the law in most places, but not against the constitution. Nor is it exactly protected by the constitution -- the right to life may or may not include the right to give up your life, depending on how you look at it.

**KoopaTroopa** · 05-11-2009, 02:57 PM

Screw it. Legalize MJ, just keep it subjected to the same laws as cigarettes on where and when it can be used (perhaps borrowing from alcohol laws preventing folks from being "publically intoxicated" or somesuch).

Legalize crack/heroin/meth? Hell, no. NO, no, no. Legalizing a life-destroying substance isn't going to suddenly make it not dangerous. As with Gambit, I grew up in South Florida and experienced the perils of crack at a young age by witnessing the self-destruction of a guy across the street. The heavy drugs are evil, man.

**WhiskeySix** · 05-11-2009, 03:13 PM

I'm ok w/ pot being regulated the same as alcohol. I decided not to use it anymore since it makes me pretty nonfunctional [gives me acute short-term memory loss and wicked ADD]... but that's just my personal biology. I know many people that get by just fine smoking a J on the weekends.

The problem w/ heroin is that it's highly addictive, and the addiction is life long. I've had two close family members eventually OD from it, one in jail for larceny because of it, and another that's been in and out of rehab for 20+ years. She goes a couple years at a time between relapses, but without fail, she relapses. Apparently, the lure never goes away. Her life is permanently wrecked, as is my cousin's (her daughter) who's got all the classic problems of a kid with that kind of parent... hell, even MY parents got screwed - as they've had to take custody of my cousin and deal with all the emotional bull****. (never mind the financial toll on the family - attorneys for this and that, and the cost of a surprise dependent after your kids have moved out)

Originally Posted by stickyjeans69

put up GOOD reason to legalize drugs. what do we have to BENEFIT.

I strongly believe that I'm a more thoughtful, compassionate, and even-keeled human being after spending some time with nature's finest. There IS a benificial aspect to some drugs, for sure. You're telling me you've never met an anal-retentive, uptight loser where you've thought "DAMN that guy should really smoke a joint some time and chill out"?

Of course, I think you need to go into it with the right mindset - which I admit that most don't have. Most of my roommates in college were stereotypical "whitehats", that always wanted to checkout and giggle at Ren&Stimpy when they were lit... which is fine and their right, but I always thought it was a waste of perfectly good THC

I always wanted to jam (guitar), or draw, or play Descent, or talk about how our souls are just electricity and the universe is a giant brain and we are all just synapses in it together as one giant unibrainaverse and that when you die, you don't really die because the electricity doesn't disappear it just goes somewhere else and powers some other synapse

**Gambit7** · 05-11-2009, 03:15 PM

You gotta remember that if you legalize ALL drugs, companies will be formed to make them. Now, can you honestly visualize Phizer chunking out millions of crack rocks for people to smoke?? It aint gonna happen.

I'd be more afraid of the huge pharmaceutical conglomerates being given carte blanche on the well-being of the entire world. It'd be chaos. They'd be given license to create addicted zombies, all who make their profits sore (like a bad sci-fi movie). Morally it's an impossible thing to allow, regardless of how much damage one is allowed to do to oneself.

You saw what happened when the govt. tried to Capitalize the drug markets in the 80's. What do you think would happen today if the Free Markets were allowed to play with it? LoL It'd make the housing bubble look like a kiddie bubble bath.

Decriminalize all of them, fine. But you just cannot allow corporate access into production of stuff like crack/heroin/meth, etc. That'd just be plain stupid... The equivalent of providing unhindered access to a Sex Pill, only this version kills you and/or ruins your life... while Wall Street gets fatter.

This is why MJ should be the only substance allowed to legally be farmed/sold by anyone. If it goes further into harder drugs, I'm moving outta America.

p.s.
Most of the reason why people think their biology has to do with how they react is because they havent tried different types of weed and/or the different ways to smoke it. All weed is NOT created equal. Matter of fact, it's conceivable they'd have to regulate certain brands of it. I've tried most everything from shwag up to pure-bred sensimilia, ponically made buds (the type of stuff that is kept in small individual bud-cases, enclosed inside a felt-lined briefcase). I akin it to good or bad Rum or Vodka. The good stuff gets you nice and toasty, the bad stuff gives you a crappy hangover and makes you pretty slovenly. Then of course you can smoke it many ways (joints, one-hitters, pipes, honey-lined blunts, bongs, vaporizers, etc.). Ironically, the best MJ I've ever had was simple Shwag procured by my college roomate. His supplier had this stuff that for some reason was just awesome; it didnt smoke very smooth of course, but it made you ridiculously happy. We dubbed it "happy weed." One time my roomie couldnt put on his T-shirt 'cause of the stuff. He was like "Dude... I... I cant put on my shirt" and we rolled around on the floor balling for like 5 minutes [good times]. Sometimes I think he put "extra" stuff in it, something if MJ is legalized will have to also be regulated. e.g. You cant allow Marlboro to sift dust into their weed.
One day in college, I spent the entire day experiencing acute Deja Vu having smoked the night before. It was like living life one-step behind. After that episode, I didnt smoke much weed anymore.

Definitely causes memory issues.

p.p.s.
Ever wonder why there are never any fights or disorder at huge Phish or Dead concerts? They have a huge one down here in the glades, and the cops literally LET everyone smoke and drop themselves silly. It's one big peaceful koombaya. They WILL nail your ass for dealing though.

p.p.p.s.
I am enjoying the frankness of this thread. If I get famous someday I know this will come back to haunt me but really. I dont care.

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