Re: The argument against marijuana, and other drugs legalization

**ScratchMonkey** · 02-05-2010, 11:48 AM

Originally Posted by Hambergler

There is common ignorant conception that there are recreational opiate users. There are practically non. After 5 days of use they are addicted.

And you know this because...?

Which country are you studying where opiates are legal and therefore the effects of criminalization are not limiting users to those already on the margins of society?

If I have to choose between dealing with someone with an opiate addiction versus an alcoholic, I'd rather criminalize the beer and leave the opiates legal.

**Hambergler** · 02-05-2010, 12:05 PM

Originally Posted by snooggums

While some people are predisposed to addiction to a particular drug, actual abuse of a drug is different than usage of a drug.

There is no recreational use crack, heroin, meth, ice etc. It's all abuse.

Originally Posted by snooggums

Someone who smokes weed daily for enjoyment is not the same as someone who smokes to avoid issues in their life, just like someone who drinks for pleasure and someone who drinks to forget are using the same behavior and one is abusive while the other is not. People with good childhoods that aren't one of the few with chemical addiction tendencies may use drugs but are unlikely to abuse them unless they have trauma when they are older. Someone with a good childhood who gets raped in college still has trauma, even if it isn't during childhood.

I think it's pretty obvious that you cannot put all drugs into one abuse basket, you are presenting a red hearing. But if you insist.

I don't believe there is a safe way to smoke weed everyday, they are avoiding life in general. That is abuse. If you want to say that unhappy memories plays a part in ones drug use. That's fine, I agree, but it's very small factor and does not define an addict ,however it may speed up the process. The person who drinks and drugs everyday for pleasure is an addict at the beginning stages.

Samuel L. Jackson in Jackie Brown:
Ordell Robbie: Goddamn girl, you gettin' high already? It's just 2 o'clock!
Melanie: [chuckling] It's that late?
Ordell Robbie: You know you smoke too much of that ****, that **** gonna rob you of your own ambition.
Melanie: Not if your ambition is to get high and watch TV...

**CingularDuality** · 02-05-2010, 12:12 PM

Originally Posted by El_Gringo_Grande

Nicotine I cannot quit by myself. I have tried dozens of time. The best I can do is chew the gum. I have gone almost 2 months without nicotine and I was still having withdrawal symptoms and they where horrible. I think I was addicted after using nicotine just a couple of times because I remember just needing it the second time I chewed beechnut. I couldn't (and still can't) think straight without it.

If you're still interested in quitting, ask your Dr about Chantrix. I quit smoking absolutely painlessly over the course of six months. No withdrawals, no cravings, no problemo. It did cost me about $30 a month after insurance, though... I didn't get any of the side effects, either...

**snooggums** · 02-05-2010, 12:19 PM

Originally Posted by Hambergler

There is no recreational use crack, heroin, meth, ice etc. It's all abuse.

I think it's pretty obvious that you cannot put all drugs into one abuse basket, you are presenting a red hearing. But if you insist.

I don't believe there is a safe way to smoke weed everyday, they are avoiding life in general. That is abuse. If you want to say that unhappy memories plays a part in ones drug use. That's fine, I agree, but it's very small factor and does not define an addict ,however it may speed up the process. The person who drinks and drugs everyday for pleasure is an addict at the beginning stages.

There is a difference between use and abuse.

Eating food daily is not abuse, eating too much food or as a coping mechanism is abuse and can lead to obesity and death.
Exercising daily can be good for your. Exercising to exhaustion every day because of an image problem can lead to serious health complications and death.
Spending 10 hours a day in front of a computer at work, or writing a novel is alright. Spending 10 hours a day grinding WOW and avoiding your personal relationships is abusive.

Use is not automatically abuse, even when drugs are involved. Your War on Drugs logic is incorrect and counterproductive when talking about actual abuse issues.

**Hambergler** · 02-05-2010, 12:24 PM

Originally Posted by ScratchMonkey

And you know this because...?

I am a musician and have had extensive contact with addicts and addiction for many years.

Originally Posted by ScratchMonkey

Which country are you studying where opiates are legal and therefore the effects of criminalization are not limiting users to those already on the margins of society?

If I have to choose between dealing with someone with an opiate addiction versus an alcoholic, I'd rather criminalize the beer and leave the opiates legal.

I am not a prohibitionist. I am for legalization vs criminalization of all drugs. If it were possible to completely eradicate drugs and alcohol from the earth that would be the best option. Since that is fantasy, the best way handle the problem is legalization. Aside from some of the activities associated with the "lifestyle" I don't believe substance abuse is a criminal act.

**Hambergler** · 02-05-2010, 12:27 PM

Originally Posted by snooggums

There is a difference between use and abuse.

Eating food daily is not abuse, eating too much food or as a coping mechanism is abuse and can lead to obesity and death.
Exercising daily can be good for your. Exercising to exhaustion every day because of an image problem can lead to serious health complications and death.
Spending 10 hours a day in front of a computer at work, or writing a novel is alright. Spending 10 hours a day grinding WOW and avoiding your personal relationships is abusive.

Use is not automatically abuse, even when drugs are involved. Your War on Drugs logic is incorrect and counterproductive when talking about actual abuse issues.

Again, red hearings. Wow, now we have exercising vs crack smoking.

Perhaps you should take the kids to the park for a BBQ, throw around a frisbee and smoke a little crack.

**ScratchMonkey** · 02-05-2010, 03:03 PM

Originally Posted by Hambergler

Melanie: Not if your ambition is to get high and watch TV...

A telling quote. It highlights a whole 'nother issue, what you think the meaning of life is, and what "wasting" your time is. I figure we're here for one purpose: To make lots of copies of our DNA. We're biological xerox machines. Anything else is what we make of it, and to claim that someone is "wasting" their life by smoking it away is just opinion.

My only concern is that I not be stuck with the bill. Do whatever you want, just don't make me pay for it. And that includes crazy physical stunts that might get you permanently disabled, like climbing rock faces or racing cars. I put smoking crack in the same category.

**El_Gringo_Grande** · 02-06-2010, 12:05 AM

Originally Posted by Hambergler

I don't believe that you have friends that use heroin every now and again. They are in denial.

There is a totally different mindset for recreational use and medical use. A responsible Dr will try to prescribe painkillers where a patient can still feel a little pain so they will know what pain level they are at and will know when to stop. Recreational users use much stronger drugs and the point is to get obliterated. I can assure you if you were prescribed heroin you would be in serious trouble after three weeks.

I disagree. I remember some studies I read in college about various treatments for addicts. Some treatments that where very successful for a small portion of addicts was moderate use. This was for many drugs including cocaine. There where arguments that these people where still addicted. Maybe; but they where able to function for many years only using occasionally. When they tried to quit completely they always had sever relapses. So they learned to use the drugs safely. To plan their use.

I do still think that there are people that can use even heroin occasionally.

Originally Posted by Hambergler

If your metabolism/liver can process 2 cases of beer in one day and you were still coherent. You are pre-disposed to alcoholism. I would be very careful. A normal reaction for adults is to stop at 2-3 and they are ready for bed. I'm going to guesstimate that about 8% are pre-disposed.

I may be pre-disposed to it. But if I could quit cold turkey after two years of nightly, extreamly heavy drinking (except the occasional duty night) I really don't think I can become addicted to alcohol. But many people can become addicted to it.

Addiction is not a binary operation. Like many human behaviors it is a continuum. Even for heroin. Though with heroin I am sure the continuum is very dense and heavily skewed.

**El_Gringo_Grande** · 02-06-2010, 12:10 AM

Originally Posted by CingularDuality

If you're still interested in quitting, ask your Dr about Chantrix. I quit smoking absolutely painlessly over the course of six months. No withdrawals, no cravings, no problemo. It did cost me about $30 a month after insurance, though... I didn't get any of the side effects, either...

Yea, I do plan on trying that. I have tried a couple earlier drugs and they didn't work. I just couldn't think as well without nicotine. But those drugs where probably not as good as the newer ones.

Before all that I am going to loose some weight. 14 pounds lost since Jan 1. Goal is to loose 50 pounds this year. Hopefully that will help other things like my sleep apnea. Then I will worry about my nicotine addiction.

**Hambergler** · 02-06-2010, 02:16 AM

Originally Posted by El_Gringo_Grande

I disagree. I remember some studies I read in college about various treatments for addicts. Some treatments that where very successful for a small portion of addicts was moderate use. This was for many drugs including cocaine. There where arguments that these people where still addicted. Maybe; but they where able to function for many years only using occasionally. When they tried to quit completely they always had sever relapses. So they learned to use the drugs safely. To plan their use.

I don't know what you read, but there are no treatments like that available now. If that worked, it would be in widespread use.

Originally Posted by El_Gringo_Grande

I do still think that there are people that can use even heroin occasionally.

I don't know, maybe 1 in a million. Does it really matter? Doesn't the risk of death or hell on earth outweigh the presumed benefit by a huge margin. Are you going to tell your daughter that she can try heroin when she gets older because you think some people can use it occasionally and you brought her up with fortitude?

Originally Posted by El_Gringo_Grande

I may be pre-disposed to it. But if I could quit cold turkey after two years of nightly, extreamly heavy drinking (except the occasional duty night) I really don't think I can become addicted to alcohol. But many people can become addicted to it.

Not one person thinks they are going to get addicted, they just do. Lots of people drink a lot when they are young. Then stop when it's time to grow up. Nothing wrong with that. It's the American way. Some pick it latter in life and have no problems, some do. However two cases every night is major league drinking. I'm curious to what your drinking habits are like now.

Originally Posted by El_Gringo_Grande

Addiction is not a binary operation. Like many human behaviors it is a continuum. Even for heroin. Though with heroin I am sure the continuum is very dense and heavily skewed.

Drug addiction is impossible if drugs are never tried.

**CingularDuality** · 02-06-2010, 08:23 AM

Originally Posted by Hambergler

However two cases every night is major league drinking. I'm curious to what your drinking habits are like now.

Meh... A bottle of liquor is about 17 shots, and there was a time in my life when I would go through a bottle of liquor per night. That's not really all that spectacular of an amount of alcohol... But with that much beer, man, imagine how much he must've had to pee!

**ScratchMonkey** · 02-06-2010, 09:53 AM

Originally Posted by Hambergler

Doesn't the risk of death or hell on earth outweigh the presumed benefit by a huge margin.

Doctors are afraid to prescribe adequate pain medication for people in severe pain because of narcotics laws. The side effects of the laws are worse than the side effects of the drugs.

Are you going to tell your daughter that she can try heroin when she gets older because you think some people can use it occasionally and you brought her up with fortitude?

Perhaps a better issue is why people bother trying heroin when there are so many less risky drugs to try. (The only real issue I see with heroin is MD50, so I'd limit its use in my own body to dealing with chronic severe pain, and rely on other substances for recreation.)

**Hambergler** · 02-06-2010, 12:40 PM

Originally Posted by ScratchMonkey

Doctors are afraid to prescribe adequate pain medication for people in severe pain because of narcotics laws. The side effects of the laws are worse than the side effects of the drugs.

Chronic pain patients are prescribed everything from oxycontin to methadone. They all develop tolerances and require progressive prescriptions over many years. Cancer patients get even stronger drugs. It's a physicians ethical duty to try to minimize dependency, but with chronic pain their efforts are usually in vain. To make things worse, many patients and Drs uneducated about withdrawal symptoms confuse withdrawal symptoms for true pain. So the pain goes away and they are treating withdrawal symptoms for years. Combined with psychosomatic disorders and developed conscious or subconscious obsessions for the drug and you have a real mess.

Originally Posted by ScratchMonkey

Perhaps a better issue is why people bother trying heroin when there are so many less risky drugs to try. (The only real issue I see with heroin is MD50, so I'd limit its use in my own body to dealing with chronic severe pain, and rely on other substances for recreation.)

What's wrong with a Dr. Pepper for recreation?

**ScratchMonkey** · 02-06-2010, 01:04 PM

Dr. Pepper is full of that evil caffeine. And if we're going to give up stuff for recreation, let's start with video games. Look at all the people who are "wasting their lives" playing them.

On pain killers and the War on Drugs:
http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=3778

**Hambergler** · 02-06-2010, 01:22 PM

Originally Posted by ScratchMonkey

Dr. Pepper is full of that evil caffeine. And if we're going to give up stuff for recreation, let's start with video games. Look at all the people who are "wasting their lives" playing them.

On pain killers and the War on Drugs:
http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=3778

That's not what's happening at all. Millions of Americans are not suffering from chronic pain. There is no shortage of opioid prescriptions. Walk into any pain management Drs office and you will walk out with a script. In fact there is a prescription pill epidemic. Lorcet, Soma and Xanax are other recreational drugs. If fact that's why they were created, to have fun. We should replace lemonheads at the candystore with whatevers at the pharmacy.

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