Re: U.S. Federal Debt Nearly $12 Trillion

**Ferris Bueller** · 11-13-2009, 04:31 AM

Now, this isnt federal budget, but the colorado state budget is going to be over a billion dollars short this year. know where they're taking 25% of that billion from when trimming the budget? EDUCATION. Thats right folks, theyre cutting the state education budget by 250 MILLION dollars next year. Hows that for a load of crap?

**mp40x** · 11-13-2009, 11:16 AM

Originally Posted by El_Gringo_Grande

The question is what the strongest military in the world actually gets you.

It gets us MASSIVE deficit spending and breeds contempt for the US internationally. I'm sure you already know this, I'm just elaborating on the question you posed.

Originally Posted by Kerostasis

At the moment, the strongest military in the world is getting us the ability to ALMOST win a war in Afghanistan, while doing a half-way decent job of stabilizing a new government in Iraq. Is that worth anything?.

Its not worth anything. Its way to expensive financially and in human lives. We can probably agree to disagree about this issue as we have argued it before.

Originally Posted by Kerostasis

Meanwhile we're watching China over at Taiwan, and watching North Korea over at the border with South Korea. Neither Taiwan nor South Korea would probably exist as free countries today if we didn't have the most powerful military in the world.

Its time that Asia and Europe were responsible for their own security. Why should the US shoulder the burden alone at GREAT cost financially?

I would be in favor of cutting the defense budget in half for starters. Dropping our membership in NATO, cancelling all Mutual Defense Treaties, and closing all foreign bases around the world and bringing the troops home. Except maybe one base each in Iraq and Afghanistan with a small force just to help protect each capital city temporarily until a complete withdrawal is feasible. The only military alliances we need are with countries that neighbor us in North America such as Canada and Mexico. The only deterent we need against foreign powers is already in place, its called Mutual Assured Destruction, or MAD for short. I'm actually a fan of MAD as its the only real strategy there is to avoid nuclear conflict. I know that some would argue that we need bases around the world to keep our military capability in place to stop the next Hitler. But where is this huge threat to justify this massive and expensive American Military Empire? A group of criminal thugs hiding in a cave that have no air force, navy, or standing army.

Originally Posted by AMosely

So, in conclusion, I don't want to hear whining about 'runaway' government spending on health care without an accompanying roar about 'runaway' government spending on the more corrupt, more wasteful and arguably useless military-industrial spending problem.

I totally agree. You can't even start the debate about ending deficit spending without also talking about defense spending wich is out of control to say the least.

**Tempus** · 11-13-2009, 01:13 PM

Originally Posted by Ferris Bueller

Now, this isnt federal budget, but the colorado state budget is going to be over a billion dollars short this year. know where they're taking 25% of that billion from when trimming the budget? EDUCATION. Thats right folks, theyre cutting the state education budget by 250 MILLION dollars next year. Hows that for a load of crap?

Where would you recommend they take it from?

**Kerostasis** · 11-13-2009, 01:35 PM

Originally Posted by mp40x

It gets us MASSIVE deficit spending and breeds contempt for the US internationally. I'm sure you already know this, I'm just elaborating on the question you posed.

Its not worth anything. Its way to expensive financially and in human lives. We can probably agree to disagree about this issue as we have argued it before.

Its time that Asia and Europe were responsible for their own security. Why should the US shoulder the burden alone at GREAT cost financially?

A reasonable point. Historically, (by which I mean since about 1946) the US has shouldered that burden alone simply because no one else would. (caveat -- we have received some much appreciated help from a small number of countries, and I don't want to dismiss that -- but its been mostly us). It's not fair, and it's not right, but if we don't do it, it doesn't get done. AND people hate us for it! What a raw deal!

But could we live with ourselves if we stepped back and watched millions fall to death or slavery under tyrannical regimes? Ok, we probably could since there's a number of tyrannical regimes we don't do anything about already, but how many more do we want to add to the total?

**snooggums** · 11-13-2009, 01:41 PM

Originally Posted by Tempus

Where would you recommend they take it from?

State level drug enforcement expenditures would be my first suggestion, then release the non-violent drug offenders who were charged with possession of less than an ounce of marijuana. That will make a pretty good dent if not completely cover the cost.

**mp40x** · 11-13-2009, 02:15 PM

Originally Posted by Kerostasis

But could we live with ourselves if we stepped back and watched millions fall to death or slavery under tyrannical regimes? Ok, we probably could since there's a number of tyrannical regimes we don't do anything about already, but how many more do we want to add to the total?

We could cross that bridge if it ever materialized. And yes I could live with the fact that people may suffer if we pulled back our forces. But if we did pull back there would be a power vacuum and some other super power would probably take our place in some capacity. Basically let each super power deal with their own part of the world, Russia in Eastern Europe, China in Asia, EU/NATO in Europe, and the US in the Americas. And collectively they could all deal with the Middle east. I'm ok with this scenario. Its alot cheaper for the US that way, why treat are super power status as a religion that is held up as some sort of mantle and behond reproach. No country would ever dare attack the continental US even in some wild doomsday scenario. And lets be honest, a major war of some type would just be bad business for the countries mentioned, as their economic prowess is of far greater importance than then their military objectives ,if they even have any besides defense against the American war machine. In the end its about money, we simply don't have it like we used too, therefore we must pull back if for at the very least of reasons just to save on our spiraling debt.

**INSUNABULA** · 11-13-2009, 02:21 PM

Originally Posted by Tempus

Where would you recommend they take it from?

If they take it away from "education" I guess they are hoping the uneducated masses wont know the difference

How about they cut it from the defense budget, oh wait a minute.....the previous administrations have now made so many enemies that you actually do need those weapons now

**snooggums** · 11-13-2009, 02:30 PM

Originally Posted by INSUNABULA

If they take it away from "education" I guess they are hoping the uneducated masses wont know the difference

How about they cut it from the defense budget, oh wait a minute.....the previous administrations have now made so many enemies that you actually do need those weapons now

Colorado has a defense budget? Or are you referring to the National Guard stationed there?

**Kerostasis** · 11-13-2009, 02:37 PM

@Mp40: I would highly tempted to agree with you, except for one uncomfortable point.

Originally Posted by mp40x

No country would ever dare attack the continental US even in some wild doomsday scenario.

That assumes the old rules where countries take credit for their actions, and you know who is attacking. No country would ever publicly attack us, but what if they thought they could sneak something in that couldn't be traced back to them? A single nuke smuggled into New York City could cause enough damage to pay our military budget for probably 20 years.

**INSUNABULA** · 11-13-2009, 03:00 PM

Originally Posted by snooggums

Colorado has a defense budget? Or are you referring to the National Guard stationed there?

I'm referring to the reallocation of funds from national to state.

Originally Posted by snooggums

State level drug enforcement expenditures would be my first suggestion, then release the non-violent drug offenders who were charged with possession of less than an ounce of marijuana. That will make a pretty good dent if not completely cover the cost.

Bingo !!

**OFPmonkeyspanker** · 11-13-2009, 03:37 PM

The truth is you can never pay off that kind of debt with interest.
I would have to say thats why countries are turning away from us as they know there financing our policies and wars and dont see how they will get paid back. At the moment, they are getting paid back with an overprinted currency that isnt worth the paper its printed on.
Right now, every dollar paid back is worth about 72 cents give or take a few pennies.
This type of inflation is mostly being seen in the stock market right now. Stocks are not gaining, they are simply moving with inflation as is gold (gold is probally gonna be the next bubble btw).

Maybe wall street can bail out the white house with all the money they stole from us.
Or better yet, maybe Obama can write a new stimulus bill to pay for the debt. Just a thought since his last one worked SOoooooo well. Anyone wanna take bets on how the economy fairs after christmas this year?

**Morganan** · 11-13-2009, 03:45 PM

Originally Posted by mp40x

We could cross that bridge if it ever materialized. And yes I could live with the fact that people may suffer if we pulled back our forces. But if we did pull back there would be a power vacuum and some other super power would probably take our place in some capacity. Basically let each super power deal with their own part of the world, Russia in Eastern Europe, China in Asia, EU/NATO in Europe, and the US in the Americas. And collectively they could all deal with the Middle east. I'm ok with this scenario. Its alot cheaper for the US that way, why treat are super power status as a religion that is held up as some sort of mantle and behond reproach. No country would ever dare attack the continental US even in some wild doomsday scenario. And lets be honest, a major war of some type would just be bad business for the countries mentioned, as their economic prowess is of far greater importance than then their military objectives ,if they even have any besides defense against the American war machine. In the end its about money, we simply don't have it like we used too, therefore we must pull back if for at the very least of reasons just to save on our spiraling debt.

So you are saying you are willing to trade the ability to care what happens in the rest of the world that might effect our country's interests for the ability to act with what essentially would be impunity in the Americas? Another issue with your line of thought, you are ignoring history. How well do you honestly believe 2 countries like Japan and China would get along without our military influence in that region? How long do you think it would take for a large army/navy/air force expansion would take place in Japan if we told them they were basically on their own? How do you think China would feel about that, since they DO have memory of Japan conquering a large percentage of their country not to long ago?

You are over-estimating the value nation-states place on "economic-prowess". Do you really think countries wouldn't just go back to military competitions instead of economic ones if they felt they would be able to achieve their aims without fear of reprisals? I think you underestimate the effect our military has on our ability to keep conflicts small and thus keep them from inflating into large world-wide conflicts. Those are far more expensive all things considered then the price placed on hopefully deterring those large wars from starting in the first place.

**AMosely** · 11-13-2009, 03:45 PM

Anyone notice how the 'overly regulated' euro-zone officially returned to growth? Who's laughing now? Actually, Goldman Sachs, Citigroup and the like were already laughing. Still are, as a matter of fact - all the way to the bank. Which isn't very far, because they pretty much are the bank.

I'm getting more and more convinced that we're witnessing the beginning of the end for American dominance.

**mp40x** · 11-13-2009, 04:06 PM

Originally Posted by Kerostasis

@Mp40: I would highly tempted to agree with you, except for one uncomfortable point..

Man, its a great day in the Sandbox if you and I are about to agree to cut defense spending and pull back our troops abroad.

Originally Posted by Kerostasis

That assumes the old rules where countries take credit for their actions, and you know who is attacking. No country would ever publicly attack us, but what if they thought they could sneak something in that couldn't be traced back to them? A single nuke smuggled into New York City could cause enough damage to pay our military budget for probably 20 years.

Sure I guess its possible. But why and to what end? Like I said in my other post, that would be just bad business for everyone involved. The US would inevitably find out who was responsible and they would cease to exist after we retaliated and turned their country into a barren wasteland. We can't hope to stop such an occurrence even with our outlandish military presence abroad. Only try to stay vigilant here at home.

**snooggums** · 11-13-2009, 04:15 PM

Originally Posted by Kerostasis

@Mp40: I would highly tempted to agree with you, except for one uncomfortable point.

That assumes the old rules where countries take credit for their actions, and you know who is attacking. No country would ever publicly attack us, but what if they thought they could sneak something in that couldn't be traced back to them? A single nuke smuggled into New York City could cause enough damage to pay our military budget for probably 20 years.

How is the military going to stop that from happening?

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