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11-16-2009, 06:01 PM #46
Re: U.S. Federal Debt Nearly $12 Trillion
Former Cutthroat, established Merc.
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11-16-2009, 06:06 PM #47
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Re: U.S. Federal Debt Nearly $12 Trillion
Gotcha
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11-23-2009, 04:58 PM #48
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Re: U.S. Federal Debt Nearly $12 Trillion
http://belfercenter.ksg.harvard.edu/...45_Drezner.pdf
interesting paper written called "Bad Debt" that ties into this discussion. Well worth reading if you can blot aside the time required to read 39 pages. All footnoted for sources and documented.
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01-01-2010, 03:32 PM #49
Re: U.S. Federal Debt Nearly $12 Trillion
U.S. in fiscal peril with $12.1 trillion debt
By Richard Wolf, USA TODAY
WASHINGTON — After $787 billion in stimulus spending and $700 billion in bank bailouts, 2010 is fast shaping up to be the year of the federal budget diet.
Bipartisan support is growing in Congress for action to stabilize the nation's bulging debt, which is now $12.1 trillion. Influential experts from former Federal Reserve Board chairman Alan Greenspan to former comptroller general David Walker have joined the cause.
The public debt is the amount owed to individual investors, including foreign countries, but excluding money the government owes to its own trust funds. It has soared from $5.8 trillion to $7.6 trillion this year alone — and is more than half the size of the nation's economy for the first time since 1956.
Without action to reduce that unprecedented rise in red ink, lawmakers and experts say, Washington risks a fiscal crisis. The Congressional Budget Office projects annual interest on the public debt would be about $800 billion by 2019, but the Heritage Foundation's Brian Riedl and other analysts estimate it could surpass $1 trillion by then. Foreign creditors could refuse to buy more Treasury securities.
The focus is on the White House as President Obama prepares his State of the Union address and 2011 budget. Lawmakers and lobbyists seeking to cut the record $1.4 trillion budget deficit and stabilize the debt want Obama to back the creation of a commission that would recommend spending cuts and tax increases and require a vote by Congress. It's a process that has worked since the 1980s on military base closings.
Task force proposed
"This is a defining moment for this chamber, for this Congress, for this administration," said Sen. Kent Conrad, D-N.D., who came to Washington in 1986 when the deficit and debt were one-sixth their current size. "It is imperative that we find a way to deal with this debt threat."
Thirty-four senators so far favor creating a task force whose recommendations Congress would have to approve or reject. House Majority Leader Steny Hoyer and other House Democrats want to guarantee that every tax cut or increase in government benefits doesn't add to the deficit. The Peterson-Pew Commission on Budget Reform, a non-partisan group led by former representatives Bill Frenzel, Charles Stenholm and Tim Penny— a Republican, Democrat and independent — want to set future debt targets and enforce them with automatic spending cuts and tax hikes.
What's unusual is the number of proposals, the clout of lawmakers supporting them and the admission by Obama and congressional leaders such as Speaker Nancy Pelosi that the rising debt should be a priority. Greenspan, who presided over a commission in 1983 that helped rescue Social Security from looming bankruptcy, added his authoritative voice to the cause last week.
"The challenge to contain this threat is more urgent than at any time in our history," Greenspan said. "Our nation has never before had to confront so formidable a fiscal crisis as is now visible just over the horizon."
The administration is examining options as it prepares its second budget, to be unveiled Feb. 1.
"We share the concerns that all these members have ... in trying to bring down deficits and put us on a fiscally sustainable path," said Kenneth Baer, spokesman for the White House budget office. "We're looking at a whole range of stuff."
Who's to blame for the soaring debt is a matter of debate. Much of it is on autopilot, fueled by ever-rising costs to sustain Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security, the nation's three most expensive entitlement programs.
The White House says it inherited the problem from the Bush administration, citing the cost of two major tax cuts, two wars, a recession that began two years ago and a bailout of financial institutions. House Republican leader John Boehner and others in his party blame the $787 billion economic stimulus package passed in February and increases in this year's spending bills.
"We've seen American families and small businesses struggling all year in a very difficult economy, and all they've gotten from Democrats here in Washington is more spending and more debt piled on the backs of their kids and grandkids," Boehner said.
The cumulative debt has surpassed annual deficits as the greatest concern. The public debt could be 61% of the economy next year, growing to 70% by 2013 and 85% by 2018 if current tax and spending policies are continued, according to the Peterson-Pew Commission.
Sen. Evan Bayh, D-Ind., and a dozen colleagues threatened in December to block a nearly $2 trillion increase in the nation's debt limit — the amount of money it's allowed to borrow. Congress eventually passed a much smaller increase of $290 billion that will last only until February.
"Democrats tend to want to spend more than we can afford, Republicans tend to want to cut taxes more than we can afford, and our kids pick up the bill," Bayh said.
'The problem is the problem'
When the debt limit must be raised again in February, a dozen senators led by Conrad and Sen. Judd Gregg, R-N.H., plan to block action unless they get a vote on their commission. Their threat is forcing opponents, such as Pelosi, to signal a compromise.
"We will come to terms on a commission," Pelosi predicted last week, though its power to force Congress to vote remains in doubt. Noting Congress passed deficit-reduction packages three times in the 1990s, she said, "We know how to do it. We will do it again. And, of course, we will have to make a judgment about the priorities."
Senate Finance Committee Chairman Max Baucus, D-Mont., belittles the need for a commission to take over Congress' responsibilities. "The process is not the problem," he said, quoting former Congressional Budget Office director Rudy Penner. "The problem is the problem."





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01-01-2010, 05:09 PM #50
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Re: U.S. Federal Debt Nearly $12 Trillion
Just to talk about one point in your quoted article to show how little relevance fiscal responsibility and politics have in common, base closings...
Any base that is closed inside the continental US involves the voting district the base is being closed in loosing jobs, therefore few elected officials are interested in supporting it. First off strike off the list any bases in the state or district of the house and senate armed services committees. They can't run for re-election when their opponent can talk about the jobs the area has lost because the representative voted for closing that base. Then you can strike off any bases from the senior members of each party in the whole chamber, they cant get re-elected either costing their constituents jobs. Then you end up with Jr. members of both houses being the ones who have to "eat" bases being closed in their districts, which ends up being a politicial process to decide who looses their bases, and whom doesn't as the effectiveness and efficency of the base are less important then the political impact of the base being closed on an election.
The politics have to be removed from the equation before you can have a serious discussion about fiscal responsibility from the government. In the current political climate, I honestly don't see a way to make that happen.
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01-28-2010, 09:56 PM #51
Re: U.S. Federal Debt Nearly $12 Trillion
Senate backs increase in debt limit to $14.3 trillion
Well, I guess the title of the thread is no longer relevant. Just count on the national debt to rise by at least 1 trillion dollars a year for forever I guess, at least we know what to expect. Somehow thats not particularly comforting, but whats another couple trillion at this point.WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The Senate voted narrowly on Thursday to increase the government's borrowing authority to $14.3 trillion, which would allow the Treasury Department to continue servicing the country's spiraling national debt through most of 2010.
Senate Democrats hope the 60 to 40 party-line vote will enable them to avoid another politically toxic vote on the issue before the November congressional elections.
The House of Representatives will vote on the legislation next week, House Majority Leader Steny Hoyer said. It will then go to President Barack Obama and be signed into law.
Congress must periodically raise the legal limit for the government's borrowing, and the Treasury Department is expected within weeks to exceed the current $12.4 trillion limit set in December.
Failure to raise the limit would roil financial markets, but lawmakers are never eager to sign off on a measure that allows the government to dig itself deeper into debt.
The national debt more than doubled over the past decade as Republican President George W. Bush cut taxes while pursuing wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and setting up an expensive prescription-drug benefit.
"We've gone to the restaurant, we've eaten the meal, and now the only question is whether we'll pay the check," said Democratic Senator Max Baucus.
President Barack Obama and his Democrats who control Congress now face a growing public backlash over the aggressive spending measures they have taken to stimulate the economy, which had been mired in the worst recession in 70 years.
ANOTHER TRILLION-DOLLAR DEFICIT
The government spent a record $1.4 trillion more than it collected in the past fiscal year, and the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office (CBO) forecasts a similar $1.35 trillion deficit for the current fiscal year, which ends September 30.
Experts warn that investors could demand higher interest rates on U.S. debt if Obama and Congress do not get the budget deficit under control. If current policies are not changed, the government's interest payments will more than triple over the coming decade, CBO said.
Obama has proposed a three-year freeze on domestic spending starting in October, though it remains to be seen whether his colleagues in Congress support it.
Seeking to ease the pain of the debt-limit vote, Senate Democrats paired it with a budget-control measure that would require new spending to be offset with cuts elsewhere, an approach called 'paygo' used successfully in the 1990s to turn deficits into surpluses.
Republicans said that measure could be easily circumvented and none voted for it.
At a town hall event in Florida, Obama said he was "grateful" to the Senate for passing paygo.
A separate measure that would have set up a bipartisan commission to figure out a way to balance the budget failed in the Senate on Tuesday in the face of opposition from interest groups on the left and right who worried that it would lead to tax hikes or cuts to favored programs.
Obama plans to set up a similar commission by executive order, but it would have less legal authority and could have trouble drawing Republican cooperation.





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01-29-2010, 02:28 PM #52
Re: U.S. Federal Debt Nearly $12 Trillion
The debt is constrained by the possibility of inflation. Inflation is constrained by the possibility that we might all switch to another country's currency. We'd still have to pay our taxes and fines to the US in dollars but we might all start using the Yen or the Euro for day to day use.
Dude, seriously, WHAT handkerchief?
snooggums' density principal: "The more dense a population, the more dense a population."
Iliana: "You're a great friend but if we're ever chased by zombies I'm tripping you."
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01-29-2010, 03:03 PM #53
Re: U.S. Federal Debt Nearly $12 Trillion
How much of this is because the Bush administration was determined to grow out of the deficits caused by the tax cuts he implemented?
Did they have to keep around policies that encouraged quick growth?I’m not racists, I have republican friends. Radio show host.
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01-29-2010, 03:11 PM #54
Re: U.S. Federal Debt Nearly $12 Trillion
I'm not looking forward to the period of hyperinflation when the currency finally collapses. Even if the Fed hiked up interest rates to the levels seen in the 70s, we wouldn't be able to raise enough taxes to even make a dent in it since it has grown to such a massive level. The only way out is a move to a different currency that has more worth and then use that to pay off our national debt.
Instead of relying on foreign currencies to pay our debts, I'd like to see the country use the opportunity to move away from the allure of fiat currencies entirely and go back to a full silver and gold standard. Let Congress set the weighted value of silver coins for circulation as determined by market value, and use gold as a reserve.
Of course this would mean we couldn't support our bloated overseas empire anymore, and would severely limit the spending Congress can do without raising taxes, but at least it would be a win for U.S. sovereignty, freedom, and prestige. It bothers me when people who hold this viewpoint are considered old fashioned and antiquated, and that such a system has no place in the modern world.Last edited by aeroripper; 01-29-2010 at 03:30 PM. Reason: spelling
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01-30-2010, 08:54 AM #55
Re: U.S. Federal Debt Nearly $12 Trillion
It doesn't have to be gold or silver, and it definitely shouldn't be both. It should be a single commodity. Using two commodities (such as gold and silver) means you constantly have to worry about the changes between them.
But we don't really need to base currency on a commodity. What we need is competition in currency. The legal tender laws prevent that, just as we're prevented from buying our health care across state lines. It's a way to enforce a monopoly to give the State more control over us. We have a limited ability to use other currencies, but the legal tender laws discourage it. Repeal them and we can start using any currency we can get our business partners to agree to.
It's in the US' best interest to leave its debt denominated in dollars and then hyperinflate. It's also in my best interest to leave my mortgage that way, because then I'll get my house for a bargain, and the bank will get screwed. (And so will all the people who have savings accounts there. Which means they'll pull out their money and the bank will crash and I can foreclose on it!) This is why people are hedging their investments by moving money to gold. You can't hyperinflate gold. But you can accomplish the same thing by moving your worth to other things that won't be hurt by US inflation.Dude, seriously, WHAT handkerchief?
snooggums' density principal: "The more dense a population, the more dense a population."
Iliana: "You're a great friend but if we're ever chased by zombies I'm tripping you."
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01-30-2010, 08:25 PM #56
Re: U.S. Federal Debt Nearly $12 Trillion
I just saw the old Money Masters videos in the cabinet and had to say a bit in here. Their website has this concise plan:
The Two Step Plan to National Economic Reform and Recovery
1. Directs the Treasury Department to issue U.S. Notes (like Lincoln’s Greenbacks; can also be in electronic deposit format) to pay off the National debt.
2. Increases the reserve ratio private banks are required to maintain from 10% to 100%, thereby terminating their ability to create money, while simultaneously absorbing the funds created to retire the national debt.
Paying off the National debt while slowly eliminating the fractional reserve banking system: I like that very much. It ceases to amaze me, however, that the government has such little gusto for reigning in the "Federal" Reserve whilst wanting to control more and more issues concerning individuals.

"The true genius shudders at incompleteness - and usually prefers silence to saying
something which is not everything it should be." — Edgar Allan Poe
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01-30-2010, 08:43 PM #57
Re: U.S. Federal Debt Nearly $12 Trillion
If a bank can't use fractional reserves, how will it make loans? Or does that mean you can't withdraw your savings unless the bank calls in enough loans to cover the withdrawal?
Dude, seriously, WHAT handkerchief?
snooggums' density principal: "The more dense a population, the more dense a population."
Iliana: "You're a great friend but if we're ever chased by zombies I'm tripping you."
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01-30-2010, 09:25 PM #58
Re: U.S. Federal Debt Nearly $12 Trillion
Thats what building societies or housing associations used to do I think, extremely secure lending but limited growth in that economic system.
The alternative now seems to have produced negative kinds of business growth that have collapsed and destroyed real long term industrial growth

A quick explanation, the circle shows the GDP of the country. At the top you can see a small circle for Iceland with 3/4 of it red to show how massive their help for the banks was.
The UK has spent 20% of its GDP on helping banks, Ireland 50% and France is barely effected by its spending.
The blue section of the circle shows building programs to stimulate jobs, China spent half its GDP on making new bridges or whatever where as Australia did not do much spending (or need to apparently)
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01-31-2010, 08:45 AM #59
Re: U.S. Federal Debt Nearly $12 Trillion
In the chart showing who holds US debt, I don't see the US in the list. So no private US investors hold US bonds?
Dude, seriously, WHAT handkerchief?
snooggums' density principal: "The more dense a population, the more dense a population."
Iliana: "You're a great friend but if we're ever chased by zombies I'm tripping you."
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01-31-2010, 01:31 PM #60
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Re: U.S. Federal Debt Nearly $12 Trillion
I take it that it was obvious that US bond holders wouldn't count as foreign treasury security holders...
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