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01-31-2010, 01:46 PM #61
Re: U.S. Federal Debt Nearly $12 Trillion
If you want a more detailed list, here's the link from the US Treasury Department of: MAJOR FOREIGN HOLDERS OF US TREASURY SECURITIES






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01-31-2010, 03:10 PM #62
Re: U.S. Federal Debt Nearly $12 Trillion
Ah, I didn't blow it up to see the "foreign" in the subtitle. So how much do US investors hold?
Dude, seriously, WHAT handkerchief?
snooggums' density principal: "The more dense a population, the more dense a population."
Iliana: "You're a great friend but if we're ever chased by zombies I'm tripping you."
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01-31-2010, 04:41 PM #63
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Re: U.S. Federal Debt Nearly $12 Trillion
Not a lot. A bit dated: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Es...egory_0608.jpg
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01-31-2010, 06:16 PM #64
Re: U.S. Federal Debt Nearly $12 Trillion
Of course I'm not against banks loaning and making a profit. What I am against is artificially increasing the money supply by the flick of a pen and their assurance that your "savings" are still yours while they have them loaned out to someone else.This video is somewhat concise on the basics of how fractional reserve banking does that.
It's dishonest not to explain to the customers that they're betting their savings against a run, which the FED just might decide not to bail out. In a full reserve system there would be clear distinction between depositing for safe-holding and investing for purposes of making interest. Investments for loan purposes would naturally continue to pay a rate of interest, but unless a loan agency decided to provide no cost safe-holding of money there would be a system of charge for that service.

"The true genius shudders at incompleteness - and usually prefers silence to saying
something which is not everything it should be." — Edgar Allan Poe
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02-01-2010, 10:17 AM #65
Re: U.S. Federal Debt Nearly $12 Trillion
That explanation is simplistic because there are many other factors. It is this econ 101 stuff that freshmen get all upset about "the man" and how we are going to be enslaved by some dark force.
Taken on it's own and emphasized it is just Silly. That fractional reserve banking alone doesn't create inflation.I’m not racists, I have republican friends. Radio show host.
- "The essence of tyranny is the denial of complexity". -Jacob Burkhardt
- "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds" - Emerson
- "People should not be afraid of it's government, government should be afraid of it's People." - Line from V for Vendetta
- If software were as unreliable as economic theory, there wouldn't be a plane made of anything other than paper that could get off the ground. Jim Fawcette
- "Let me now state what seems to me the decisive objection to any conservatism which deserves to be called such. It is that by its very nature it cannot offer an alternative to the direction in which we are moving." -Friedrich Hayek
- "Don't waist your time on me your already the voice inside my head." Blink 182 to my wife
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02-01-2010, 10:47 AM #66
Re: U.S. Federal Debt Nearly $12 Trillion
The best way to tell a lie is to tell the truth unconvincingly. I don't disagree with you but to tell a kid he's "silly" is not going to convince him.

I think a big part of the objection to fractional reserve is the idea that some people get the special privilege to lend out money they don't actually have. If I did that, I'd be put in jail. So why should a banker get that privilege? One consideration is that he's subject to heavy regulation, including the need to carry depositor's insurance. So what does an ordinary person have to do to join this special club of bankers?Dude, seriously, WHAT handkerchief?
snooggums' density principal: "The more dense a population, the more dense a population."
Iliana: "You're a great friend but if we're ever chased by zombies I'm tripping you."
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02-01-2010, 11:41 AM #67
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Re: U.S. Federal Debt Nearly $12 Trillion
Intro college courses are not designed to convince the student of anything. They're designed to give students the necessary background knowledge and concepts to learn more. As my adviser once told me, "In order to be a good teacher, you need to lie to your students." The idea isn't to teach them falsehoods. The idea is that you need to skirt issues and dumb things down at a certain level in order to get them to focus on a particular concept at hand. You can't throw too much at them at the beginning and it can't be over their heads. For instance, when teaching students subtraction for the very first time, math teachers tell their students they can't subtract when the second number is greater than the first. This of course is false - you certainly can. But the students at this point don't have any rigorous concept of negative numbers. So you just tell them they can't; at least not until they're good at doing subtraction within the positive numbers. After you introduce them to negative numbers, then you can reapply lessons learned about subtraction to that. Later you'll show them that there are more numbers than the integers, and subtraction applies there too. In college you can show them how set compliment is formally akin to the subtraction they're very used to by now. And so on. You can't just do that all on the first day. So you need to wall off certain topics.
But in some sense, taken on it's own - thinking that subtraction doesn't apply if the second number is greater than the first - is kind of silly. That's not because the student is silly. That's because they haven't learned the truth yet. College students are the same - as are many grad students. They are eager to make use of what they've learned so far. But they aren't experts yet - though they may think they are - and don't command all of the concepts well enough to have an accurate enough picture of how the world works to debate at a high level.
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02-01-2010, 12:18 PM #68
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02-01-2010, 07:14 PM #69
Re: U.S. Federal Debt Nearly $12 Trillion
Yay the Western Union will be so much fun....








When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. ~ Jimi Hendrix
And isn't it a bad thing to be deceived about the truth, and a good thing to know what the truth is? For I assume that by knowing the truth you mean knowing things as they really are. ~ Plato
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02-01-2010, 07:22 PM #70
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02-03-2010, 04:03 PM #71
Re: U.S. Federal Debt Nearly $12 Trillion
Of course I'm not against banks loaning and making a profit. What I am against is artificially increasing the money supply by the flick of a pen and their assurance that your "savings" are still yours while they have them loaned out to someone else.This video is somewhat concise on the basics of how fractional reserve banking does that.
It's dishonest not to explain to the customers that they're betting their savings against a run, which the FED just might decide not to bail out. In a full reserve system there would be clear distinction between depositing for safe-holding and investing for purposes of making interest. Investments for loan purposes would naturally continue to pay a rate of interest, but unless a loan agency decided to provide no cost safe-holding of money there would be a system of charge for that service.I agree with Sunshine that banks should inform their customers their withdrawal might not be available on demand, due to bank lending. They should pay the depositor a good amount of interest to keep their money with that bank, for this inconvenience. The depositor is lending the bank money, so they can use it to build leverage and make a lot more money. Many people do not understand this very basic premise of modern banking, and they should be reminded of it when depositing their hard earned money. Although, that is a bit idealistic, and the less depositors know about what's happening to their money, the better it is for the banks profit margins.Taken on it's own and emphasized it is just Silly. That fractional reserve banking alone doesn't create inflation.
Other banks could label themselves as CD banks (cash on demand), where they keep a large amount of reserves on hand to handle most withdrawals. Our current monetary system is not a conductive environment for honest banking, since banks will get bailed out by the Fed when they make too many risky loans with other people's money. There is little incentive to keep a large reserve of unlendable money, when the Fed will bail you out if you get a run. Why keep all that money locked away in a vault, when you can be making a lot more money with it, when you know you might get rewarded with a bailout?
This isn't always the case for smaller banks, since sometimes they ARE allowed to fail, and get merged into a bigger bank. Inflation comes directly from the expansion of the money supply to lend to, and bailout these banks and the excessive purchasing of government spending bonds. The resulting inflation and the accompanying wage increases (which never come soon enough) to compensate, slowly rob the lower and middle classes of their wealth. Eventually the process will ensnare everyone in high levels of debt and interest payments, and will result in a currency crisis when the unit becomes astronomically inflated and other nations refuse to accept our debt payments in dollars.
It really depends on how you look at the problem. Some view the system as an imperfect creation that overall has benefited the nation greatly except up till recently. It's just some bankers looking to get rich, while improving the lives of those they loan to. There is no "dark force" conspiring against us, and anyone who believes in any conspiracy, not matter how valid or well researched and documented, is obviously a lunatic. The real problem is that college freshmen in econ 101 don't yet have enough historic or technical knowledge to name or sufficiently explain the underpinnings of this "dark force", and that is their main fault.That explanation is simplistic because there are many other factors. It is this econ 101 stuff that freshmen get all upset about "the man" and how we are going to be enslaved by some dark force.
This force is real, and its current implementation is forming a high-tech feudalistic form of world government, controlled by an international financial elite. There is much evidence both historic and current that suggests that this is the case, and our nation is currently being merged into this system.
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02-06-2010, 03:20 PM #72
Re: U.S. Federal Debt Nearly $12 Trillion
To prevent inflation, allow competition in currency, so the one with the most value wins:
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c111:H.R.4248:Dude, seriously, WHAT handkerchief?
snooggums' density principal: "The more dense a population, the more dense a population."
Iliana: "You're a great friend but if we're ever chased by zombies I'm tripping you."
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02-06-2010, 05:21 PM #73
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02-06-2010, 09:10 PM #74
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02-06-2010, 10:17 PM #75
Re: U.S. Federal Debt Nearly $12 Trillion
I believe the audit the fed bill got rolled into a larger financial overhaul bill, it will probably still get watered down or dropped eventually. As I understand it, yes they will, but I don't see the politicians who rely on the unlimited money the Fed provides to wrap their arms around the idea. If there is coming a time in the future where this bill might pass (a currency crisis), I'd expect the Federal Reserve to react harshly in defense of its monopoly. That's just judging from Andrew Jackson's experience in getting rid of fiat central banking. Although I imagine they already have a contingency plan in place to introduce a new currency (or temporarily use a basket of international currencies) once the dollar is destroyed. Either scenario is a loss for national sovereignty, which already seems to be in short supply these days.How did the bill to audit the fed's debt go ?
'competition in currency'
Would this basically be a return to state banks issuing currency?
If it were to pass, I'd imagine currencies backed with silver\gold will be the most popular, especially if they have a good exchange ratio against the increasingly worthless Fed notes.
This is a minor inconvenience for having a currency that will keep the value of your money over time and is far more resistant to inflation (especially if fully backed by gold). The current cash in your wallet is going to be worthless in the not too distant future, along with any savings you haven't converted to silver/gold bullion or other valuable commodities. I believe the transition to a better currency will be a bit messy at first, but as time goes on, the most popular will win out and be widely accepted.If I understand correctly this bill would make it necessary for me to inquire at every store I go into if they accept cash*. No thanks.
*referring to the notion of cash as it is todayLast edited by aeroripper; 02-06-2010 at 10:42 PM.
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