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01-13-2010, 11:12 PM #31
Re: Sea Sheperd jerks blame Japanese ship for their actions
Ecosystem degradation?
Biodiversity degradation?
Predator/Prey relationships?
Shift in food web structure?
Deep sea ecology changes?
Population expansion and implosion?
Massive population decreases?
The Marine Management and culling fallacy?
Removal of key species (large top predator) from ecosystem?
Foraging ranges and behavioural changes?
Extinction at all levels?
Knock on effects on other species?
Changes in generalist and specialist hunters?
Removal of mammal species like seal and increase in groundfish?
Removal of phytoplankton for zooplankon? And subsequent changes in everything in the ecosystem?
Science; Biology; Environmental Biology; Ecology? (Laughable that 'scientific research' by Japanese politicos is claimed when Science already knows, or at worse suspects and needs to study more trends from Marine and terrestrial studies).
Iconic animals/'large predators' usually only the media face of a travesty underneath in Habitat/Environment protection?
Future Scientific research (real scientific research not the Japanese poppycock)
Future human awareness?
Dolphin and Whale Intelligence? And research in this?
Sustainable Development? Which includes the end part - 'for future generations', too?
Species extinction before Science has even recorded them?
Man realising 'he's' not God?
About, well, all the Scientific research and experience in Environment and Biology since Darwin?
Past knowledge on extinctions, Biodiversity? and Environment?
History?
I don't think we can 'think' our way through laws and philosophy - facts are what Science is about. Environmental Biologists, Ecologists and Marine Biologists, look for facts. These are a few they have come up with that are problems. A PHD in Philosophy wont work on this one (not at you Sordavie but I think highbrowing by many miss the point, and how would you say: make smoke screens to the real issues to falter an argument and bemuse the opponent into silence? It's not about 'our great highbrow thinking' as we pat ourselves for being so clever - Isn't it Douglas Adams that pointed out our ancestors wanted to know what colour we'd like fire and since the leaf was the currency and made everyone very rich but the leaf as currency inconsenquential, a great way to increase value was to burn down all the trees). Reality and getting with the program instead of our high and mighty thinking will. Problem is humans wont get real and believe they are above everything. I'd still bet my money - and I am no betting man - some smart remark would come though, to fly in the face of not what I write, but thousands of people that work in this field as Scientists, and teach Students at University, to try and study, but also raise awareness to halt this, and work in this field too.
One last then:
The World being fragile and can not sustain our parasiticness?
So where do the parasites go since we are part of the world and not apart from the ecosystem?
And the above is by no means exhaustive. I studied Environmental Biology, not Marine Biology, but a few things that allude to other things not mentioned and a whole lot more. But here's a few to chew on.
Since I am not up to date nor as brilliant as the biologist E.O Wilson. I'd refer you to him too.
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01-13-2010, 11:24 PM #32
Re: Sea Sheperd jerks blame Japanese ship for their actions
X) Our own survival Sordavie.
The legal stuff is irrelevant.
The emotional preferences are irrelevant.
It is about preserving enough biodiversity to sustain human life, that is the bottom line. Any environmental protection action has that same bottom line of our own survival. Unfortunately many half-witted environmentalists just do it because them pretty seals have cute big eyes. They do as much damage to their own cause as they do good, because they turn-off many more rational and moderate people. They are helpfull in bringing things into the public view though.
//I just watched whale wars for the first time.... boy are some on his crew incompetent ****-ups! Not easy for the captain to work with that.
They should smarten up though. How about using a PIAT-type device to launch their acid bottles on the decks? Instead of trying to throw them up a towering bow with huge gloves and constricting suits. The cord to block the propellors is allright though. Some rich dude go donate them one of these miocrowave weapons and the one which makes the incapacitating noise.
I actually was contemplating last year going on the ship with them, after my ex met with the captain... Rather happy I didn't though, I think. Looks damn cold, and one of these days one of their crew is going to die, even if it is just from falling in the water.What it's like to play online games as a grown-up:http://s3.amazonaws.com/theoatmeal-i...e_gaming/1.jpg
"Heroism on command, senseless violence, and all the loathsome nonsense that goes by the name of patriotism -how passionately I hate them!"
"Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind."
(Einstein, both)
***I will be in India 14 dec till end of januari***
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01-14-2010, 10:01 AM #33
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01-14-2010, 10:39 AM #34
Re: Sea Sheperd jerks blame Japanese ship for their actions
The world is not fragile, specific ecosystems are fragile. If we screwed up and wiped out 99% of life on the planet with nuclear war life would survive and adapt. It would not initially be as lush and varied as it is now, but it would recover because life and ecosystems are not fragile as a whole, but fragile in smaller portions.
For example: If the rainforests turned to desert, you would simply have a desert ecosystem replace it. There is a lot of life in the deserts, just not what most people enjoy and less lush vegetation to support large populations, but there is a lot of life.
If one species is killed off other ones replace it's duties. When species are introduced into new habitats they often kill off an existing population or spread out of control, but that happens naturally too. The reason that people are opposed to this kind of change is primarily due to not wanting things to change, which they do normally.
Lets take the Dodo. This bird flourished because it did not have any real predators and was wiped out by human over hunting. Sure the bird died but the ecosystem didn't come to a crashing halt. Would this species eventually die out or evolve into a new species? Of course! The only reason to lament the birds demise is because we feel guilty about killing off species that are cute, cuddly or entertaining. Not nearly as many people would be upset about cockroaches getting wiped out as cute and cuddly seals, although cockroaches do play an important part in getting rid of waste (after all, they primarily infest homes with lots of waste around...).
I agree that the whole humans are parasites or not part of nature crap is annoying too. Humans came from nature. Everything we build starts with natural resources. Is a beaver dam unnatural? The beaver changes the wood from it's starting tree state into a constructed dam. Insects regularly construct structures, birds make nests, animals dig burrows and coral leaves behind large reefs. All of these things change nature and are part of nature just like we are. Just because we might have a stronger impact as a species or we shut ourselves out from the weather doesn't mean we aren't a part of it. If we wiped out an ecosystem, or an asteroid, a volcano, a virus, a non-native species, climate change or anything else wiped out an ecosystem the effect would be natural because we are part of nature just like the other things.Last edited by snooggums; 01-14-2010 at 01:51 PM. Reason: clarified agreement on last paragraph
Just because everyone does something does not mean that it is right to do.
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01-14-2010, 11:05 AM #35
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Re: Sea Sheperd jerks blame Japanese ship for their actions
What? Can you explain what you are trying to say more clearly? A bunch of phrases proceeded by question marks doesn't really get across whatever you're trying to say.
The question of what we should be doing is one that's informed by facts, but is not one that can be answered merely by looking at facts. That is sometimes called the is-ought problem. The problem is that one cannot infer how things ought to be by how things actually are. Biological research programs can tell us how things are, but pure biology cannot tell us how things ought to be - that is, they cannot tell us how we ought to act to realize how things will be in the future.
The question of how we ought to act is the domain of philosophy: ethics (how we morally ought to act), decision theory (how we rationally ought to act), and so on. Of course the answer to how we ought to act is often informed by how things are. But it is not entailed by how things are.
When scientists claim that we should or should not do this based on their research, they are making claims that go beyond presenting the claims that are supported by their empirical data. They are making normative claims. That requires reasoning that's got nothing to do with the science. When a biologist says that overfishing will destroy the ecosystem. That is a descriptive claim. It's a claim about how things are. But when a biologist says that we shouldn't overfish because it will destroy the ecosystem, that is a normative claim. It's a claim about what we should or shouldn't do, given the way things are. This latter claim is not a scientific claim. It's a philosophical claim. It contains a scientific claim as a part, but it is a philosophical claim. The subject in that claim is us and how we ought to act - not the ecosystem.
I asked for arguments that hunting whales is unacceptable in any form. Part of the reasons contained in those arguments surely will be scientific facts. However, those facts alone won't suffice to entail the conclusion that hunting whales is unacceptable in any form.Last edited by sordavie; 01-14-2010 at 11:21 AM.
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01-14-2010, 11:15 AM #36
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Re: Sea Sheperd jerks blame Japanese ship for their actions
Sorry. I thought your argument to the distinction between wild whales and domestic cattle was that they stood in different legal statuses with regards to killing them for profit, and thus it is okay to do so to the latter but not the former.
So what was the argument again?
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01-14-2010, 11:25 AM #37
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Re: Sea Sheperd jerks blame Japanese ship for their actions
Do we have good evidence that the existence of whales in particular is necessary to our survival? How about the number of other species that humans have caused the extinction of? Were they not necessary to our survival? Were they then okay to have hunted out of existence?
It's also of note that were this argument good, it wouldn't be an argument for whaling in general.
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01-14-2010, 11:59 AM #38
Re: Sea Sheperd jerks blame Japanese ship for their actions
After reading these posts, I now want to solicit oil tycoons and their ilk to form a new group. Sea Dogs or maybe Sea Doggs. Recruit some old salts and more professional pirates and harass the Sea Shepherd folks for SpikeTV. Should be an easy sell. The key to the show would be a little counter that would display the number of birds that will die from oil spills caused by the large consumption of fuels other than radish peals and KFC grease.
|TG-12th| tHa_KhAn

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01-14-2010, 01:06 PM #39
Re: Sea Sheperd jerks blame Japanese ship for their actions
Guys. With all due respect I think you both have twisted my words.
Snoog. I studied the thing, you don’t have to accuse me of not knowing what you say, nor have to bold out things that I know. And you surely don’t have to twist my words. I agree with what you say about Climax systems, which have been disproved for years, for example. However your 'leave alone' is not the contention of many leading Scientist in the field. E O Wilson, being one of them, who I am sure you know is an American Biologist who has trained some the elite in the field. And I’d rather mention E O Wilsons’ famous Mangrove Experiment, than the poor example of the Dodo but does show what you mean about species replacing the other, though of course I see what you mean, because I studied it. Or his book, Biodiversity; not to mention he chaired the famous convention. However I do think it un-necessary and unwarranted to accuse me of being some kind of ‘unknowing’ person in the field or I am some person that would rather a seal over a cockroach. I know more about it that that simple accusation, especially about the 'high and mightiness that to think I am not part of the Earth'. And no, I think it is fragile - they talk about Easter Island when talking about this for a reason. Yes we are likely not to survive and Life will. But I think your argument about 'managing it' has been going on for years. The late and lamented Geologist (who I am sure you know look at past ecosystems and species) Steven Gould I believe wrote a very famous article on this very matter and said as much. However, please do not accuse me as talking 'crap' and someone that has no idea. this hot subject is not solved for a reason and offensiveness or twisting of words should not play a part here. We wont solve it in this piddly forum, since the greatest minds can't make 'the knockout blow'.
Furthemore I don't think you can cram 3 years of eductaion in Ecology and other Biological aspects in this thread. I am certainly not going to bother. Even people like Attenborough and Wilson can't convince here, though I should think they'd give a run for money. There's none so blind as those that won't see. Waste of energy after what I have seen.
Sordavie, look at them as a whole – Life is about interconnectedness. And question marks are to respond, as you seem to detect, as reasons to think about. So why don’t you think of them as a whole and try from there? Maybe even take on board a Doctor in the field of Ecology’s mind and see what they think - and why they would put all this together. Maybe you could answer Snoog, or your very own questions: "Do we have good evidence that the existence of whales in particular is necessary to our survival? How about the number of other species that humans have caused the extinction of? Were they not necessary to our survival? Were they then okay to have hunted out of existence? "
One point though. I am not arguing about ‘all hunting’ as you negate the small community as one of Industrial hunting, in one fell hand. So I think that question is misleading.
I’d rather you guys not twist my words and enter a dialogue.
The evidence put forward and concepts like Sustainable Development and habitat destruction, were not made by us in our oh so mighty points of view but by the leaders of the field for years.
I'd rather a dialogue than what I have seen to win my bet so far.
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01-14-2010, 01:21 PM #40
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Re: Sea Sheperd jerks blame Japanese ship for their actions
Have I made any claims about biology that are false? No. Have I even made any claims about biology? No. Have I disputed any claims about biology? No.
You're missing my point. You seem not to understand the distinction between a normative claim and a descriptive claim. I am not asking about the reasoning that has to do with the biological facts here. Whatever they may be, I'll leave that to the experts. I'm not disputing them. However, the conclusion that the Japanese ought not whale is not a mere question of biological facts. It is a question of what people ought and ought not be doing.
Specialists in biology specialize in telling us what the biological facts are. They are not specialists in telling us what we ought and ought not be doing. They may, in addition to, making claims about biology, make claims about what we ought and ought not be doing. They often do so. Since philosophy is such a general subject, scientists make philosophical pronouncements all the time. But specialists in biology are only specialists about the former - not the latter, unless they are also philosophers.
Many of those rhetorical phrase questions you pose are philosophical questions in disguise. It may be a scientific fact that if we do something, then the biological status quo will change, perhaps in ways that would be harmful to the human species on the very long run. But whether that consequence is good or bad is not a scientific question. That is a philosophical question concerning the moral values of certain states of affairs.
My question is concerning why we should or shouldn't do something. Telling me to go look up some biology or research what some biologist says doesn't help in answering that question. If I wanted to know biological facts, then that would be useful. But I'm not. (I did pose on to BigGayAl two posts above, but as a response to a particular line of reasoning. What's the answer?) I'm fine with deferring to those on this board with more expertise on biological matters. It's not the biological matters I'm wondering about, however.
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01-14-2010, 01:38 PM #41
Re: Sea Sheperd jerks blame Japanese ship for their actions
I agree with you right up to - telling you to go off and do some research. I am not. I am suggesting to you to take on board the mind of why a scientist may come to the point of view when looking at everything. Those rhetorical philospohical questions and headings in hard biology being headings to view.
Yes, the form is to not 'make opinion' as you say but instead hestantly propose that it leans to a weight of an argument. People like Attenborough and Wilson pick up the sticks in a more 'political forum'. I am suggesting to put yourself in the mind of a scientist that would/or not state the conclusions but have them in their mind anyway.
I am not wanting to counter you, by the way, or should I say, make clear, I am saying why don't you lend your mind to why as a whole, these headings lead to scientists coming up with we have problems. And yes, biology should be left to the experts - they are reporting to you what they see, under those headings above. So I am saying, your question should be 'why' and take them all on as an interconnection. There are many experts that are 'some biologist' you could enter the mind of: Wilson would be a great example.
It may help resolve the very question you are trying to achieve.
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01-14-2010, 01:58 PM #42
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Re: Sea Sheperd jerks blame Japanese ship for their actions
I'm not sure why you assume I do not have the mind of a scientist. Perhaps you might equally wonder why those scientists don't put themselves in the mind of a philosopher? After all, whether we should or shouldn't do something that may have ecological consequences is a philosophical question. What the ecological consequences of certain actions are a biological question. Whether those biological consequences are good or bad is a philosophical question. That is a question about the values of those states of affairs - it is not an empirical question. I'm not sure if repeating this again will help you, since you appear not to have understood the last few times I've said it: whether the Japanese should be whaling or not is essentially a philosophical question. It is a question about whether we should or shouldn't be doing something. Science may inform the answer to that question, since we may want to know what the consequences of whaling are. But pure science won't be able to answer the question.
There's no amount of empirical study a biologist can do that will tell us whether the extinction of the human race is good or bad. Such studies may be able to tell us what would cause the extinction of the human race. But whether that state of affairs, the extinction of the human race, is a good or bad thing is a question of philosophy - in particular a question of ethics.
One argument against whaling has been that over-whaling will lead to the extinction of certain species of whales. Another has been that whaling will cause a certain kind of shift in the marine ecosystem. But neither of these reasons by itself will entail the conclusion that the Japanese morally should not be whaling. What would be needed to make these arguments formally valid is the premise that the extinction of whales is a morally bad state of affairs or that a certain kind of shift in the marine ecosystem is a morally bad state of affairs, in addition to the premise that intentionally acting in ways to cause morally bad states of affairs should not be done. Perhaps you think these are so obvious to you that they need not be stated and can be assumed. That is not so. Or perhaps you've just never thought about such assumptions, and so never thought to wonder what impact they make on your reasoning.
I take it what Snoogums was pointing out is that humans are part of nature and whatever we do is part of nature. This might give way to a line of reasoning that there's nothing bad, or at least unnatural, about the status quo of the ecosystem changing due to human actions - regardless of whether those changes affect the human species positively or negatively.
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01-14-2010, 02:09 PM #43
Re: Sea Sheperd jerks blame Japanese ship for their actions
I was agreeing with you about humans being part of the ecosystem. I added "I agree that" to the beginning of the section to clarify.
I don't think Sordavie's point has gotten through to you that science information isn't always applicable to right and wrong determinations.
Science:
You can reduce a whale species by over hunting. They can be made extinct by doing this too much. If so, other species will fill the gap.
You can reduce the spread of a strain of the flu through vaccination and safety procedures. Let's assume this strain can be wiped out with a certain procedure.
Morals:
Causing a while species to go extinct is wrong because it lowers biodiversity.
Wiping out a flu strain is ok because it saves people's lives.
Just because science can predict something or be used to determine the effects of something doesn't mean it gives an answer on what we should do. In past times killing wolves and other predators was seen as good for humanity, but we found out through science that doing so did have a negative effect. But the science itself did not make a determination on whether continuing the trend was right or wrong, as an alternative we could have increased hunting of the animals that the predators weren't killing.
As has been said already, science doesn't tell us whether wiping out a species is right or wrong, just whether or not it might impact other species. Killing off rats and vermin in cities is ok because it lowers disease, although doing so is basically the same thing as overfishing. Wholesale slaughter of rats vs whales is based on morally based decisions, not scientific ones.Just because everyone does something does not mean that it is right to do.
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01-14-2010, 02:11 PM #44
Re: Sea Sheperd jerks blame Japanese ship for their actions
Well I know that.
Thanks for making it clear by what you meant though I kinda knew and was trying to move accross that entrenched view. Seems I haven't made myself clear, unfortunately. Still, not up to me in half the respects.
Well in any case much respect to you, and Snoog if ya watching. Aint life great!
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01-14-2010, 03:03 PM #45
Re: Sea Sheperd jerks blame Japanese ship for their actions
If we encountered a new species that was cognitively superior to humans and provided some useful natural resource when dead (food, oil, cure for cancer), would it be ok to hunt it mercilessly? What about hunting a species cognitively superior to the lower end of human intelligence? If it's ok to hunt such a species, should it also be ok to hunt or farm low-intelligence humans?
We've had similar questions in the Avatar movie thread and the abortion thread. (Fetuses provide cells very useful in medical research and treatments.)Dude, seriously, WHAT handkerchief?
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