Re: Sea Sheperd jerks blame Japanese ship for their actions

**peardog** · 02-03-2010, 08:35 AM

I hear the Cockroach is the "Bamboo" of the insect world... It may just be a rumor though..

Have we broached the topic of Whale Farms? So we can Breed these beasts for Slaughter..? Not sure what they are used for ..but they are big.. maybe we can run our SUV's off of their Blubber..?

An remember Star Trek 4 (I think..).. Where they had to go back in time to save the Wales from Extinction... It's the one where Mr. Scott Talked to the Computer Mouse (I think it was an old Apple one button mouse..)..

It's Obama's fault..

**ScratchMonkey** · 02-03-2010, 10:14 AM

You're giving me a picture in my head of a cowboy riding on a dolphin, roping a baby whale cow to brand it. Perhaps we could use the Sacramento river delta (which feeds into San Francisco Bay, where whales are frequently spotted) to hold a "running of the whales".

**peardog** · 02-04-2010, 07:31 AM

Originally Posted by ScratchMonkey

You're giving me a picture in my head of a cowboy riding on a dolphin, roping a baby whale cow to brand it. Perhaps we could use the Sacramento river delta (which feeds into San Francisco Bay, where whales are frequently spotted) to hold a "running of the whales".

It would be a tourist attraction..!! That and a Quick trip to Disney Land... It's all good..

**WhiskeySix** · 02-08-2010, 11:58 AM

Another interesting discussion about whales: Swimming With Whales [OnPoint with Tom Ashbrook]

Whales thrill humans, and they always have.

The easy day-trip thrill of watching whales. The terrifying thrill of hunting whales. The ancient thrill of contemplating a creature of size beyond imagining. Even of being swallowed whole.

Philip Hoare caught whale fever in the pages of “Moby Dick,” the giant skeletons of museum display and the sight of giant humpbacks breaching.

He ended up mid-Atlantic, swimming face to face with a sperm whale, overwhelmed by all the leviathan has meant and means today.

This hour, On Point: A tale of whales.

The guest talks about the features of their brains and how it's at least plausible that they're nearly as intelligent as humans. (Dolphins are #2 on the 'intelligence' scale - behind us, and ahead of chimp's... so a sperm whale with a brain an order of magnitude larger, might also be more intelligent? Have their own religion?)

**sordavie** · 02-08-2010, 03:25 PM

Originally Posted by WhiskeySix

The guest talks about the features of their brains and how it's at least plausible that they're nearly as intelligent as humans. (Dolphins are #2 on the 'intelligence' scale - behind us, and ahead of chimp's... so a sperm whale with a brain an order of magnitude larger, might also be more intelligent? Have their own religion?)

Usually discussion of animal intelligence in relation to brain size is not in terms of absolute brain size but in terms of brain size relative to body mass - well, actually brain size to expected brain sized based on body size. Humans have by far the highest brain size to body mass ratio. Dolphins and Chimps come next. Whales, even with their large brains have really small brain size to body mass ratios since their body mass is so huge. The idea here is that with such a large mass, one requires a large amount of brain matter dedicated to controlling functions of one's body - reserving less for other kinds of tasks. Being in the ocean requires navigation in 3 dimensions, reserving even more brain power than us land dwellers. And so on. But generally it's very hard to determine intelligence based on brain features or size - they are only very, very rough markers. While I haven't heard biologists say that whales are particularly unintelligent, I haven't really heard them say that they are particularly intelligent either. Perhaps that's due to lack of research than them having an opinion that whales are pretty average.

I think when people consider some species to be nearly as intelligent as humans, they're just considering them to be pretty smart - like dogs or pigs. No other species on Earth is really close to us under any kind of plausible conception of intelligence.

**WhiskeySix** · 02-09-2010, 11:02 AM

Yeah, the biggest thing is that practically nothing is known about Sperm Whales... We don't know how they hunt, how they mate, or even how they eat (female sperm whales don't have teeth!?). They could be sentient, intelligent beings, aware of their own existence - it's hard to prove otherwise.

One interesting thing in that OnPoint program was the speculation some researchers had about humpbacks off Cape Cod. First one has to understand that for whales, their primary sense is hearing. They can communicate over thousands of miles in some cases. Anyway - there are whale-watch boats that go out 3-4 times a day... they know all the whales by sight and have names for them. On the boats, the 'tour guide' might say over the loud speakers, "there's Penelope! Penelope is 6 years old. Everybody say hello to Penelope!"... that happens a few times a day all summer, right.. so the researcher was speculating that the whales might actually learn their names "if dogs can learn it, why not whales"

**ScratchMonkey** · 02-09-2010, 04:05 PM

We also judge intelligence by language capacity. Measuring that is difficult without injecting the anthropomorphic bias of the researcher. Many pets have a small inbound vocabulary and a very tiny (if present at all) outbound vocabulary. There's the sign language work done with great apes.

I got a fascinating book for xmas called "The Stuff of Thought", by Steven Pinker (Order from Amazon.com). Pinker uses language as a window into how human cognition works. I just finished a chapter on obscenity, and it's a very multi-dimensional phenomenon that appears to have a number of different explanations. Right now I'm working through a chapter on politeness and veiled language what motivates it. In many cases he presents language experiments used to support various theories about how the brain is wired.

**sordavie** · 02-09-2010, 04:25 PM

Originally Posted by WhiskeySix

Yeah, the biggest thing is that practically nothing is known about Sperm Whales... We don't know how they hunt, how they mate, or even how they eat (female sperm whales don't have teeth!?). They could be sentient, intelligent beings, aware of their own existence - it's hard to prove otherwise.

One interesting thing in that OnPoint program was the speculation some researchers had about humpbacks off Cape Cod. First one has to understand that for whales, their primary sense is hearing. They can communicate over thousands of miles in some cases. Anyway - there are whale-watch boats that go out 3-4 times a day... they know all the whales by sight and have names for them. On the boats, the 'tour guide' might say over the loud speakers, "there's Penelope! Penelope is 6 years old. Everybody say hello to Penelope!"... that happens a few times a day all summer, right.. so the researcher was speculating that the whales might actually learn their names "if dogs can learn it, why not whales"

Sadly, it's not clear that dogs learn their names. It may be that they're learning to respond with expected behavior to physical or audio cues.

Even with the great apes, we've found that their language abilities - understanding syntax - are really, really limited.

**WhiskeySix** · 02-09-2010, 06:10 PM

Originally Posted by sordavie

Sadly, it's not clear that dogs learn their names. It may be that they're learning to respond with expected behavior to physical or audio cues.

Even with the great apes, we've found that their language abilities - understanding syntax - are really, really limited.

Neither dogs nor apes don't have 18lb brains.

**sordavie** · 02-09-2010, 06:22 PM

Too many negations in that sentence!

But that's true whales have really large brains. However, dog's and apes have much greater brain mass to body mass ratios, which is much more important in estimating intelligence.

**ScratchMonkey** · 02-09-2010, 06:32 PM

Originally Posted by WhiskeySix

Neither dogs nor apes don't have 18lb brains.

I think I need an 18 lb. brain to parse that!

**snooggums** · 05-27-2010, 06:41 PM

Update, trial has begun for "Mr Citizens Arrest".

http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/asiapc...ex.html?hpt=T2

Tokyo, Japan (CNN) -- Wearing a dark, Japanese style business suit, New Zealand environmental activist Peter Bethune sat in-between two uniformed court officers as his trial began on Thursday in downtown Tokyo.

The officers stared ahead, unflinching, as 44-year-old Bethune scanned the courtroom.

The head judge ran through each of the charges in Japanese. When the court interpreter began translating into English, Bethune turned to listen.

The charges are serious, announced the court: trespassing, damage to property, assault, forcible obstruction of official business and possession of an illegal knife.

If convicted on all counts, Bethune faces a maximum of 15 years behind bars.

Bethune was captain of Sea Shepherd's futuristic boat, the Ady Gil.

The batmobile-esque, $3 million boat collided with a Japanese whaling ship, the Shonan Maru 2, and sank in January.

Weeks later, Bethune jumped aboard the Shonan Maru 2 and attempted to make a citizen's arrest of the captain. He was arrested and brought back to Japan to face criminal charges.

In court Thursday, Bethune admitted to all the charges, except for assault.

"I admit that I boarded the Shonan Maru, but I believe that I have good reason to do so," he said. "I admit that I fired the butyric acid, but there were additional circumstances that we will discuss in court."

...snip...

Sea Shepherd's Seattle-based attorney, Dan Harris, is in Tokyo for Bethune's trial, though he is not Bethune's official Japanese counsel.

"This whole trial has been brought about for political reasons, far more than criminal reasons. If you look at what Peter Bethune did, he didn't do anything," Harris said. "He climbed aboard a Japanese ship. Nobody was in any danger. No one was under any threat. No one was afraid. For Japan to act like it's enforcing a criminal law is a little disingenuous, when you look at what Pete Bethune did."

Japan maintains that when its laws are broken, it will prosecute.

"We all recognize the right of protest, right of demonstration, right to express their views. That does not mean you can attack people with force, attack our vessels and crews with their vessels," said Joji Mori****a, from Japan's Fisheries Agency.

Ha, eat that Japanese name word filter!

**Jakaleel** · 05-28-2010, 04:02 AM

possession of an illegal knife

I would think most of the crew on a fishing vessel would have a knife. Is it illegal because he wasn't a member of the crew, its not made in Japan, long enough to be classified as a short sword or that he was a Gaikokujin Terrorist?

**CallousDisregard** · 05-29-2010, 06:00 PM

For Japan to act like it's enforcing a criminal law is a little disingenuous, when you look at what Pete Bethune did."

How dare they enforce their laws !

**machowner** · 05-30-2010, 12:52 AM

Originally Posted by Jakaleel

I would think most of the crew on a fishing vessel would have a knife. Is it illegal because he wasn't a member of the crew, its not made in Japan, long enough to be classified as a short sword or that he was a Gaikokujin Terrorist?

I would think that you are on the right track. He wasn't a member of their crew so while most the crew on their fishing vessel may have a knife, it is a tool for their trade.

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